Mormons Rock

November 13, 2007

The Straight and narrow path

…”Straight is the gate and narrow the path that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:14

Not everyone will accept the gospel, not everyone will take the straight and narrow path.  Although I wish everyone could have the happiness that the gospel brings and the joy that taking the straight path will bring you. 

The gospel WILL be taught to all the world, it does not mean everyone will accept it, but it will be taught. 

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54 Comments »

  1. I wanted to get on here and and say that I agree – and I accept the gospel and His love.
    I figured that I better get this in before they start desending on this post and picking it apart -

    Comment by Ron — November 13, 2007 @ 9:15 pm |Reply

  2. But Ron, what is your basis for belief, and it your basis accurate, and is it in line with what God has said in the Bible, His written Word?

    Ask yourself these questions, and if you’re honest, you’ll come to the conclusion that with Mormonism, the answer is “No.”

    Comment by Brad — November 13, 2007 @ 9:27 pm |Reply

  3. Thanks Ron, :)

    Brad, i’m honest and Ron IS honest, and we have come to the conclusion that the church is TRUE!!!!! :)

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 12:01 am |Reply

  4. Oh miss guided Brad,,,,,,, if the only thing you have to go on is what is written and what you can prove then you have already lost the battle – I know that the church is true because my heart is accurate and I have faith, without faith there is nothing. And you see here is the clincher ,,, it really doesn’t matter what you write – what I believe is what I believe, you are free to believe what you wish. :)

    Comment by Ron — November 14, 2007 @ 4:44 am |Reply

  5. Steffie,

    Why is the path so straight and narrow that so many can’t find it no matter how hard they try?

    The problem I have with the whole world will hear the truth argument is that it is not practical. In the long (millions of years) history of the earth, the truth (according to Mormons) has only been around for a couple hundred years – including the time of Christ, and of the Billions and Billions of humans that have walked the earth for hundreds of thousands of years, only a few million have heard the truth. Seems the plan is really just to teach a few million so they can do all the preaching and converting of the 99.9% that haven’t heard the truth, in the afterlife.

    And what about the Neanderthals that lived a few hundred thousand years ago and went extinct about 25,000 years ago? They came and went without any notion of the truth. What did they do wrong? For that matter, in who’s likeness were they created? They were human after all.

    Let’s face it. The Plan of Salvation has got to be one of the most inefficient plans I have ever witnessed. I would be fired if I came up with a plan like that.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 14, 2007 @ 6:34 am |Reply

  6. Good questions, I’ll tell you what I believe. With the people who lived in ancient times, I believe they did have access to the gospel, just as Moses and Abraham, but we have no record of it, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have it. As we progress we are able to learn more, and we are given more of the gospel. Do we have it ALL? No I don’t believe we do, I believe there is so much we do not know.

    The straight and Narrow path is not only hard to find, and hard to except, but it is also hard to follow, because it’s not the fun way. You can’t lie, cheat, gossip, ect, or you will fall off the path. If you look at the world today you can see how awful people are, I have had many business dealings where I have found out that people will just lie and now I don’t trust ANY businesses, I think most are corrupt. As well as people in general. It is hard to find frienships that last because so many will gossip and talk behind peoples backs. So many people do this, and these are small things that will take you off the straight path.

    It all makes sense to me, people can have the gospel, and just simply not be interested in living it, just because it is not fun or easy.

    I know I am not perfect, and it is easy to stray, but I also know when I do what is right I feel good inside, and that is the best feeling in the world!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 1:41 pm |Reply

  7. Oh miss guided Brad,,,,,,, if the only thing you have to go on is what is written and what you can prove then you have already lost the battle – I know that the church is true because my heart is accurate and I have faith, without faith there is nothing. And you see here is the clincher ,,, it really doesn’t matter what you write – what I believe is what I believe, you are free to believe what you wish

    Ron, your arguments are so shallow, I’m not sure you realize how shallow and baseless they really are. Those of us who are looking at them can see, but you, as the author, I guess cannot.

    What is written and what I can prove is not the “only” thing I have to go on. I have faith, as you do. However, my faith is in what I cannot see, but at no time does it run contrary to the properly interpreted Word of God, the Bible. For if it did, then it would be faith misplaced, as God has said that He does not lie, so His Bible must be the inspired Word of God.

    You don’t know that the church is true b/c of anything except the feeling you have that it is, which is based on your need for acceptance and your need to belong to something you feel is right. But that’s ALL your “truth” is based upon, Ron! You do have “faith” (that your church is correct), but it is grossly misplaced, b/c Mormonism and its doctrines fold like a cheap suit, when viewed logically. If God had a father, and that father had a father, how far back do you go before there was no father? There had to be a start – but if you hold to the Mormon view that God had a father, and a father before him, and so on, that logic implodes when you try to make it eternal, b/c there is no starting place. It’s things like this (and numerous others, in fact) that Mormons conveniently overlook when they speak of their faith and belief that they “know” the church is true.

    I truly am sorry for you, Ron, but hope you will take it upon yourself to at least investigate all the doctrinal claims of Mormonism, and try to view them outside the Mormon lens for what they are.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 2:04 pm |Reply

  8. AND in my experiene it has been the Christian and Mormon businessmen that are the most corrupt.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 14, 2007 @ 3:25 pm |Reply

  9. I can agree with Brad on this one, but Brad you should also considering researching the Bible and its origin through the same logic and rationalism you do Mormonism.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 14, 2007 @ 3:29 pm |Reply

  10. Brad, You keep saying things like the “properly interpreted” Word of God. YOU think your interpretation is correct and everyone else’s is wrong. BUT it is YOUR interpretation, and you have admitted that no one can understand the bible with 100% accuracy. So how can you claim that you are right and we are wrong based on YOUR interpretation? It just doesn’t make sense. You claim to be Christian, and of no particular denomination, Every church I have been to interpretes things differently then the church down the street. We have, Baptists, and Church of Christ and Non Denominational, and Methodists and Lutherans, and Four square, and Nazarenes, and we could go on and on but I think you get the point. None of these denominations agree, which is why there were splits and why new churches were created and are still being created. So if all these Christian denominations can’t agree on doctrine, how can they all be christian? All of them have different interpretations, so who is right? And how can you claim to be right if you have a different version of then your brother down the street???????

    Your arrgument of a correct interpretation, and that you have this correct interpretation is mighty flawed!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 4:12 pm |Reply

  11. CoventryRM,

    I HAVE done so with the Bible, and still arrive at the same conclusions I have today.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 4:56 pm |Reply

  12. Brad, You keep saying things like the “properly interpreted” Word of God. YOU think your interpretation is correct and everyone else’s is wrong. BUT it is YOUR interpretation, and you have admitted that no one can understand the bible with 100% accuracy. So how can you claim that you are right and we are wrong based on YOUR interpretation? It just doesn’t make sense.

    At no time have I said EVERYONE else’s is wrong (another instance of putting words in someone’s mouth, I see). And it’s not the correct interpretation, b/c it’s MY interpretation, but b/c it is the interpretation that holds up to the light of all Scripture. That’s what makes it correct, not the qualifications of the person bringing it (yet another case of a Mormon overlooking the Bible to see what a man has to say about it). And if you were to TRULY look at it, it makes perfect sense. If 2 people have diametrically opposed viewpoints about similar Scripture, THEY CAN’T BOTH BE RIGHT! To say otherwise – that would be what “doesn’t make sense.” Yet you continue to say all the time that it’s unknowable, that your way is right for you. Do you not see the relativism in that? Do you even know what relativism is? B/c that’s the viewpoint you take, when you construct an argument such as you have. That’s why I say, based on a proper interpretation of the Bible (which is knowable, which you don’t use), the Mormon line of thinking is simply incorrect.

    You claim to be Christian, and of no particular denomination,

    Actually, I have said I’m Southern Baptist, but that’s of no consequence. Continue.

    Every church I have been to interpretes things differently then the church down the street. We have, Baptists, and Church of Christ and Non Denominational, and Methodists and Lutherans, and Four square, and Nazarenes, and we could go on and on but I think you get the point. None of these denominations agree, which is why there were splits and why new churches were created and are still being created.

    I would agree for the most part. Most of them don’t agree PERFECTLY with each other, but many of them agree on the key doctrinal concepts (with some exceptions).

    So if all these Christian denominations can’t agree on doctrine, how can they all be christian? All of them have different interpretations, so who is right? And how can you claim to be right if you have a different version of then your brother down the street???????

    But that’s where I think your argument is a little skewed. For the most part, Baptists, Methodists, Foursquare, Nazarene, etc… DO agree on a good majority of key doctrine. It’s the “other” things, the non-essentials if you will, that they disagree about. That doesn’t make any of them “un-Christian”, it just makes them have different opinions about things that don’t matter for salvation. However, for things that DO matter for salvation (such as the nature of God, Jesus, the Trinity, Holy Spirit, salvation, atonement, grace, etc…), then they do need to be in agreement about what the Bible says.

    Your question/statement is no different than what Smith did. He had the same questions as to who was right, and what did he do? He, too, started his own “church.” How do we know he is any more right than any of the other churches you mention, Steffie? Is it that special feeling we should have? Is it faith? What about when what we have faith in doesn’t match up to written Scripture? What do we do then, use our faith to trump the Bible? This is the quandry that Mormons are (and should find themselves) in.

    Your arrgument of a correct interpretation, and that you have this correct interpretation is mighty flawed!

    On the contrary, it is actually quite true. I hold to the correct interpretation, I didn’t come up with it. And I’m not the only person who has, I’m just one of many.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 5:09 pm |Reply

  13. BRAD!

    you quote me in your above comment,

    “You claim to be Christian, and of no particular denomination,”

    This IS what YOU told us, and here is your comment on this post http://mormonsrock.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/what-do-you-believe/

    Comment 109
    Brad says “Happyman, I’m evangelical Christian. Denomination doesn’t matter”

    So I assumed since denomination did not matter that you were NON denominational. This is the first time you have told us your denomination!!!!!!

    Also, you keep on with this interpretation business, An interpretation is an explanation or opinion of what something means. In this case the bible,

    YOUR interpretation is different then mine, but YOUR interpretation is your OPINION! NOT FACT!!!!!!!!!!!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 6:06 pm |Reply

  14. Actually, SL, I told Jay on the “Baffled” thread that I was Baptist. If you reference a thread other than this to say that I didn’t, then you ought to reference a thread other than this to contradict that and show that I did. Try to keep up.

    Do you know what relativism is, SL? Really? Do you realize you’re demonstrating it by your beliefs?

    The correct interpretation is fact – doesn’t matter whether it’s my interpretation or not. I just happen to hold to the correct interpretation, b/c it holds up in light of all Scripture, a concept that you clearly do not understand.

    Feelings, you will find at the end of your life, SL, will get you nowhere good. I’m trying to help you out here, though you think you need none.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 6:37 pm |Reply

  15. Brad,
    As a Biblical exegete, I would like you to provide me with a link to your interpretive skills. I would be very interested in your study of the Bible and how you have arrive at your apparently unimpeachable conclusions regarding the meaning and importance of various theological concepts. In particular, I would be interested in how you apparently have decided to ignore literally thousands of years of interpretive endeavor, instead positing that you are the source about the truth of the Bible. Your argument does indeed imply that your understanding of the Bible represents “the truth” while those who disagree with you have “false” interpretations. Can you point to any evidence regarding truth and falsehood other than your approval? Again, I would be interested in seeing it. That said, I would prefer that you send it to me via email (hpsoandsos at gmail dot com). I don’t want to threadjack steffielyn’s testimonial with a lengthy discourse on your religious views. Or, if you have a blog or something where you write, I would be happy to discuss this with you there.

    Comment by John C. — November 14, 2007 @ 7:23 pm |Reply

  16. It’s ok, he can post it here as well as emailing you, I would also like to know his answers to your questions!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 7:28 pm |Reply

  17. Sorry brad you are correct, here is the link… http://mormonsrock.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/baffled/

    ….and it is comment 148, which is a long comment, I must have missed it!

    Sorry, I’ll try to do better!

    And Brad, maybe you should use smaller words, remember i’m brainwashed, illogical, lost and oh let’s not forget I have my head stuck in the sand!

    Wow, I can really see now how you are trying to help me out!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 7:42 pm |Reply

  18. John C,

    A “link” to my interpretive skills? No such link exists, for anyone’s interpretive skills. Interpretation of the Bible is a method whereby you look at Scripture, not verse by verse alone, but each verse in light of several different things. These include: the historical background of the people or group being written to, the general historical background of the culture as a whole (i.e. what THEY would have understood by the writings), the original languages (i.e. the way THEY would have heard or read what was being said, not the way we as English-speaking people would understand it), the context (not just of the verses in question, but the chapter, book and entire Bible itself, to make sure that all interpretations are in agreement with one another and cannot be defeated), and so on. If you are NOT studying and interpreting the Bible in this fashion, how can you even hope to come to a proper understanding of God’s Word??

    John, you have failed to read everything I have said, or either, not surprisingly, taken it out of context. Nowhere did I say my “conclusions” were “unimpeachable.” In fact, I have told Jay that it could well be that I’m mistaken, but I have yet to be shown where by anyone who can or will take the time to go through it, in a logical, objective manner. I don’t ignore all interpretive efforts – I just don’t agree with all of them. Just b/c they’ve been done a long time, doesn’t mean it’s right, does it? And at no time have I said that “I” am the “source about the truth of the Bible.” In fact, I have said the opposite. God IS the truth in His Word, and we CAN know what He meant. I’m not the source of it – I didn’t write it, nor did I think of it. That is reserved for God alone. So your argument in that respect is invalid on its face, b/c you misunderstood (or ignored) what was really said).

    Do I believe that the interpretation of Scripture that I (as well as many, many others) happen to hold to is correct? Absolutely, or else I wouldn’t believe in it, would I? Do YOU believe that YOUR interpretation of Scripture is correct? I would have to assume that you do, or else you wouldn’t believe in it (if you don’t believe your interpretation is correct, but you believe it anyway, that’s another case entirely). As such, I believe that alternate interpretations are wrong/false; in fact, you or others who hold a different interpretation also, by definition, believe others are false. If you don’t, then your in a relative line of thinking, which is a whole different ballgame entirely. If you do, then how can you argue against me saying the same thing?

    Is there evidence, other than my opinion, about what is true and what is false? Sure there is. If I present it to you or others on here, will you believe it? No, b/c you don’t want to. We’ve gone over this with SL numerous times already. Mormonism is riddled with errors and fraud, yet people still get sucked in and believe it. Why? B/c they want to.

    If you believe any interpretation I’ve given is wrong, then please, show me where (and more importantly why) you believe it is wrong, according to the Bible, and I’ll be glad to listen.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 7:46 pm |Reply

  19. SL, I’ve been trying and willing to show you the entire time. You don’t WANT to believe it, despite any evidence.

    That’s something that I can’t do anything about.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 7:48 pm |Reply

  20. Brad,
    I believe that your assertion that Steffie’s interpretation is wrong and I also have yet to see you provide a shred of evidence (outside of your assertions) to prove your case. I have no interest in reading through the history of your attacks, so let’s limit the discussion to your comments on this thread.

    Please demonstrate that your interpretation is “the interpretation that holds up to the light of all Scripture.” Or, more accurate, you stated that Mormonism is not in line with what God has said in the Bible. I would like you to demonstrate that you understand what the Bible says and I would like you to definitively prove that Mormon Biblical interpretation is flawed, false, or less reliant on logic or truth than yours.

    Mind you, all of that would truly be a threadjack, but I would like you to talk about something substantive instead of making vague accusations.

    Comment by John C. — November 14, 2007 @ 7:54 pm |Reply

  21. If you believe any interpretation I’ve given is wrong, then please, show me where (and more importantly why) you believe it is wrong, according to the Bible, and I’ll be glad to listen.

    Brad,
    Your entire premise is wrong. Without the Bible you have nothing. Without the Bible (or BoM, D&C, etc.) we still have everything we need. God can reveal Himself to us even if we don’t have a bible available. Your communicatioin with him is limited to paper and ink. Sorry man, you’re never going to convince a Mormon that everything needs to be proved with the Bible. We believe God is smarter than that.

    Comment by Rusty — November 14, 2007 @ 8:27 pm |Reply

  22. John,

    I’ve done this numerous times on these blogs. If you don’t want to go back and read what I’ve written elsewhere, then you don’t have to. But I’m not going to repeat it again, here, just so you don’t have to do some work to find it.

    If you truly want to know, then you can do the investigating and find what I’ve said. If you don’t, then you won’t care what I’ve said at all.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 8:29 pm |Reply

  23. Rusty, most Mormons will never be convinced of anything other than Mormonism, sadly.

    We don’t need to worry about not having a Bible available, b/c we do, so that argument is moot. If what God “reveals” to someone is not in line with Scripture, then that “revelation” is false. Period.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 8:31 pm |Reply

  24. Brad has not shown any evidence, he has only stated that I am wrong and he is right.

    Most his comments are in the posts “baffled” and “I believe in Christ”

    Brad I too would like to know where you get your interpretation and if I missed where you wrote it give can you provide the link?!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 8:48 pm |Reply

  25. Brad,
    Dude, that’s all Scripture is…revelation. We just happen to believe that God isn’t done doing it.

    Comment by Rusty — November 14, 2007 @ 8:50 pm |Reply

  26. My interpretation on “what”? You have to define what you want to be interpreted. It’s not an open-ended question.

    Comment by Brad — November 14, 2007 @ 10:11 pm |Reply

  27. You say you have the correct interpretation of the BIBLE, so where do you get this interpretation? Where can I find it?

    Comment by steffielynn — November 14, 2007 @ 10:43 pm |Reply

  28. Brad,
    Demonstrate your knowledge/expertise/point with an actual piece of evidence. That is all I ask. John F, in another thread, is asking you to give a shred of unambiguous evidence for the trinity. I would like a shred of evidence that you are actually doing the reading and thinking here and not just repeating what your preacher/anti-Mormon quote book hasn’t already told you. Demonstrate that you are thinking and then we can have a conversation. All you are demonstrating at this moment is that you are unwilling to defend the various statements that I quoted above.

    Comment by John C. — November 14, 2007 @ 10:59 pm |Reply

  29. People, practice the “Field of Dreams” principle: If you ignore it, it will go away.

    Comment by Ray — November 15, 2007 @ 12:26 am |Reply

  30. You cannot prove the validity and/or divinity of a book by using the words contained in that book as the sole proving point.

    This goes for ANY book. Bible, BofM, PofGP…ANY book.

    “The Bible is true because the Bible says so” is the weakest argument that can be devised.

    NO argument ever stated can be weaker than this.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 15, 2007 @ 5:01 am |Reply

  31. steffielynn, this is quite a little blog you’re running. I’m a little puzzled where all these Evangelical do-gooders come from; do you run ads or something? It’s nice you have posted your positive experiences with the Church and as a convert. It would be nice if Evangelicals set up their own blogs to post their own positive experiences rather than looked for clever ways to attack the religious beliefs of others. I suspect they don’t because they really don’t have any positive experiences to relate. They make noise as a substitute for a message and try to pass it off as Christianity. It’s nice you can see through their charade. They’re just pathetic; a waste of pixels.

    I hope you are enjoying your ward and your young family. I have no doubt they are a much friendlier group of people than you’ll find anywhere online. Best of luck.

    Comment by Dave — November 15, 2007 @ 5:38 am |Reply

  32. Yeah, I have the same question, Steffilynn. Where did you get your fine collection of born again trolls? Brad is an especially lovely specimen. There must be hundreds of Mormon blogs but these people all hang out here! It’s either a tremendous compliment to you or you have very bad luck, I can’t decide which.

    Comment by MCQ — November 15, 2007 @ 9:14 am |Reply

  33. You say you have the correct interpretation of the BIBLE, so where do you get this interpretation? Where can I find it?

    SL, this continues to demonstrate your ignorance (or willful desire to try to not understand).

    You have to define what section of verses in the Bible you want to be interpreted. You can’t “find” it anywhere.

    Comment by Brad — November 15, 2007 @ 1:57 pm |Reply

  34. Demonstrate your knowledge/expertise/point with an actual piece of evidence. That is all I ask. John F, in another thread, is asking you to give a shred of unambiguous evidence for the trinity. I would like a shred of evidence that you are actually doing the reading and thinking here and not just repeating what your preacher/anti-Mormon quote book hasn’t already told you. Demonstrate that you are thinking and then we can have a conversation. All you are demonstrating at this moment is that you are unwilling to defend the various statements that I quoted above.

    Not at all, John C. I have said many things, on this and other blogs. What I’m unwilling to do is type them all over again. If you care what I say (and I suspect you don’t), then you will do the homework and go back to see what I wrote. If you don’t care (which I suspect is the case), then you won’t, you’ll just want to argue that I can’t support anything, without having gone back to see what I’ve already written. That’s the penalty for coming to the party late.

    It doesn’t matter where I get my information from. It matters whether the information is true. You’re trying to put me on the defensive, which I never go for. You have a question, ask it. If you don’t, then we have not much to chat about.

    Comment by Brad — November 15, 2007 @ 2:00 pm |Reply

  35. “The Bible is true because the Bible says so” is the weakest argument that can be devised.

    NO argument ever stated can be weaker than this.

    That’s only true depending on WHAT you believe about the Bible. If you believe it to be the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of God (as I do), then it’s perfectly logical. If you don’t believe that God inspired it, and that every Word is true, then you have objections to Christianity other than just what we’re going over here. We can always address those, if you like.

    Comment by Brad — November 15, 2007 @ 2:02 pm |Reply

  36. Brad,
    Honestly, it shouldn’t be this difficult. Produce some small amount of evidence. I am willing to type a few sentences here and there over and over again (clearly). I am not asking you to write a dissertation. If you can support your argument with the one true interpretation of the Bible, then please do so. You have not so done thusfar.

    Comment by John C. — November 15, 2007 @ 2:20 pm |Reply

  37. “If you believe any interpretation I’ve given is wrong, then please, show me where (and more importantly why) you believe it is wrong, according to the Bible, and I’ll be glad to listen.”
    Brad, this is the problem. I never see you interpreting the Bible. I see you assuring us that you have read it, that you have studied it, and that you are done due diligence in figuring out the one true interpretation thereof. But you offer no evidence that you have actually done it. In this thread, you have not cited a single verse of scripture to support anyone of your assertions regarding the Bible. In the “How I Became a Mormon” thread, you have cited scripture once, in order to prove to someone that they were never Christian, no matter what they may have thought or felt about the matter (which is not terribly admirable and which is also wrenching scripture from its appropriate context and thereby distorting its meaning, but whatever). I want to know why you believe what you claim to believe and you resolutely refuse to say why. Please say why.

    Comment by John C. — November 15, 2007 @ 2:39 pm |Reply

  38. John C.,

    As I’ve said before, questions are too vague and broad to be answered. Narrow your questions down, and I’ll answer. A general “show your interpretation” doesn’t make sense, when there’s no question to answer.

    You can try to talk circles all you want, but you’ve not asked a SPECIFIC question.

    Comment by Brad — November 15, 2007 @ 3:32 pm |Reply

  39. Brad, go to the Baffled thread. I ask several questions there. Also go to the How I became Mormon. The questions are out there.

    Regarding vague answers, they are the only appropriate responses to vague accusations, no? :)

    Comment by John C. — November 15, 2007 @ 4:03 pm |Reply

  40. That’s only true depending on WHAT you believe about the Bible. If you believe it to be the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of God (as I do), then it’s perfectly logical.

    I can only assume that by this same rock-solid logic you believe the Qu’ran to be true then too, right?

    Brad, that is not logical at all. In fact, it’s the exact opposite of logic, to believe a book to be true because it says it is. There has to be some other way to be able to verify it’s truth than to just “believe it to be the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of God”. It’s the exact same question as the chicken or the egg, it’s circular logic, which is in fact not logical at all.

    Comment by Rusty — November 15, 2007 @ 5:27 pm |Reply

  41. No Rusty, I believe the Qu’ran to be no more of God than the BOM – that is, NOT of God.

    There are many reasons to believe the Bible is the i,i,i Word of God, other than the Bible said so. But you don’t care about them, Rusty, and you wouldn’t believe them if I told you. Volitional objections, volitional objections.

    Comment by Brad — November 15, 2007 @ 6:39 pm |Reply

  42. steffielynn

    You have had a a good start for a blog. I have been very impressed with your choices of topics so far. I admit that in some ways you have been “forced” into this by those who are not what I consider motivated by goodness and honesty.

    I am, I guess, one of those “cut and run” Mormons. I didn’t know that was a religious term, but thought it was mostly a political statement about the Iraq war (not to bring that topic up). At any rate, I don’t think it is Mormons trying to ignore a topic, as much as ignore the disrespect and total vitrolic the discussions are filled with by those who try to argue the matter. A good discussion can exist about these topics when done with respect. It is rather hard to do that when the other party curses those who disagree with Hell, or ad-hominem about non-Christian or cultist, or accuse the other side of religious lying and malfeasance, or mock them for beliefs they hold dear. Such people are reckless “trolls” in life or online (yes, I have been known to exhibit such behavior, but I don’t feel it is my default mode of discussion). That they have religious intentions behind the words makes them dangerous as can be seen in the nightly news.

    There is a point when patience simply becomes self-abuse by the hands of others. However, that is not my call to make for this blog. My point is, welcome and I hope to read your blog more in the future for what it is meant to be and not for what some have made it.

    P.S. I thought I would make a comment here because of what my blog is named. Come and visit sometime.

    Comment by Jettboy — November 15, 2007 @ 6:45 pm |Reply

  43. There are many reasons to believe the Bible is the i,i,i Word of God, other than the Bible said so. But you don’t care about them, Rusty, and you wouldn’t believe them if I told you. Volitional objections, volitional objections.

    Actually, you are wrong, I would LOVE to know some other reasons you believe the Bible to be the word of God. That’s why I asked the question (how do you know that the Bible is true) in the first place. The only answer I’ve heard from the evangelical point of view is because the Bible says so. I’m very interested to know.

    Comment by Rusty — November 15, 2007 @ 6:53 pm |Reply

  44. “But you don’t care about them, Rusty, and you wouldn’t believe them if I told you.”

    I think you’re just saying this because you’ve really got nothing and are too frustrated and embarrassed to admit it.

    If a Mormon said the exact same thing to you in a debate, what would you tell him?

    No, wait. I already know. You’d mock him and claim that he’s just making excuses.

    Stinks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn’t it?

    Comment by Seth R. — November 15, 2007 @ 7:30 pm |Reply

  45. Dave

    You said

    ” It would be nice if Evangelicals set up their own blogs to post their own positive experiences rather than looked for clever ways to attack the religious beliefs of others. ”

    Steffie is not a typical Mormon thats why she rocks ! She is trying understnd why we don’t like Mormon Theology but instead like Mormons :)

    I wouldn’t want to chat on a blog of TBM’s all patting each other on the back for being wonderfull and awsome blah blah…

    Comment by elder joseph — November 15, 2007 @ 8:36 pm |Reply

  46. ej, your comment isn’t relevant to the quote you chose. Just so you know.

    Comment by John C. — November 15, 2007 @ 8:48 pm |Reply

  47. [...] here we are today with the internets full of Evangelicals telling me what I believe and my spirit of contention has been re-awakened. Discussing Christianity/Mormonism [...]

    Pingback by Nine Moons » Blog Archive : I Love A Good Christ-Like Argument » I Love A Good Christ-Like Argument — November 15, 2007 @ 9:46 pm |Reply

  48. John C,

    Sure it is. You just have to read between the lines.

    All EJ is saying is that a blog that is only filled with great experiences and supporting comments is boring.

    Plus he took the opportunity to throw a compliment Steffie’s way.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 16, 2007 @ 12:49 am |Reply

  49. “I wouldn’t want to chat on a blog of TBM’s all patting each other on the back for being wonderfull and awsome blah blah…”

    That actually doesn’t describe most Mormon blogs I’ve encountered. Most of the Mormon blogs I’ve been on have few problems pointing out and discussing the problems, hang-ups, and flaws of the LDS Church. It’s kind of a hobby.

    But we do tend to get bent out of shape when people start throwing verbal stink bombs. I don’t know if that’s what you were talking about.

    Comment by Seth R. — November 17, 2007 @ 2:11 am |Reply

  50. SethR

    “Most of the Mormon blogs I’ve been on have few problems pointing out and discussing the problems, hang-ups, and flaws of the LDS Church”

    The church is perfect ! what is there to discuss amongst yourselves ? hahahah :)

    Comment by elder joseph — November 17, 2007 @ 2:19 am |Reply

  51. None of us think the Church is “perfect.” Nor did anyone here claim it was that I can remember.

    Comment by Seth R. — November 17, 2007 @ 2:28 am |Reply

  52. It has been mentioned many times that the church is perfect but the members aren’t.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 17, 2007 @ 4:22 am |Reply

  53. People have said that, BR. Maybe it’s a matter of semantics. sometimes its hard to tell what is the “Church” and what is the “members.” After all, the Church is not self-executing, it can only act through the actions of members, who, as you say, are imperfect, including the prophet. I think when people say “the Church is perfect” they are talking about its organization, or its mission. Whatever they may be talking about, most participants in the bloggernacle that I have encountered reject the view that the Church, as an organization made up of mortals, can ever be perfect.

    Comment by MCQ — November 17, 2007 @ 6:46 pm |Reply

  54. Fwiw, I also think cultural domination has a terrible effect on any organization. I grew up in rural Utah county, where there were two non-Mormon families in our entire ward boundaries, and, while I wouldn’t change my upbringing for anything, I recognize that the Church can be VERY different in Utah (and th surrounding intermountain states) than it tends to be outside that cultural domination.

    Exclusivity and homogeneity breed complacency, arrogance and contempt – that can be seen among some members and, unfortunately, even some higher-level leaders. None of us mortals are exempt from the possibility, so, to echo MCQ, while the organizational structure might be as close to perfect (whole and complete) as possible, the individual membership, at all levels, certainly is not. We still have LOTS of growth to see and changes to make and learning to receive.

    Comment by Ray — November 17, 2007 @ 6:58 pm |Reply


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