Mormons Rock

October 15, 2007

What I know!

Filed under: faith,LDS,life,love,Mormons — by steffielynn @ 4:47 am

So I’m new to the blog thing so I wasn’t sure what my next post was going to be about.  Thanks to a recent comment, I recieved some inspiration. 

We live in a world of mystery.  We don’t know much of anything, we live our lives with some sort of normalcy, yet all these crazy things are happening around us.  The sun is shining and we don’t think much of it.  Yet we are on the earth and the earth is traveling around this ball of fire, it is really quite amazing!  Yet I rarely think about it like this.  I just go about my day, lalala de da.  What do any of us REALLY know????

Well I want to share with you what I know.  Not what I think I know, But what I really know. 

Ten years ago I met my daughter for the first time.  The doctor gave her right to me when she was born and I looked at her face and I felt a connection, like I had always known her.   When I met my husband I swear firecrackers were going off behind him.  We instantly connected, and three weeks later we were married.  Six and a half years later I am still in love with him, and I KNOW we are “soul mates”  (and I know that is so cliche, but it’s true.)  Then I got pregnant with my son.  I didn’t know how I could love THREE people.  I was afraid I didn’t have enough in me.  But when he was born, I found it was indeed in me.   I love these three people so much I could explode!  I know what true love is.  It’s not always fun, you worry about them, and you want to take care of them, and you would literally DIE for them. 

Before I joined the LDS church I KNEW I would be with these people forever.  I believed in God and I knew he had something for us, but I had NO idea what. 

I attended many other churches, My first question would always be, what happens when you die?  I never got much of an answer, probably because they didn’t know.  But I knew. 

So fast forward a couple years, and here I am.  A member of the LDS church.  Last December my family went to the temple and we were sealed together forever.  I knew that this was the place that I had been longing to find.  I remember being in the sealing room, and holding Steven’s hand, and watching my children walk into the room, and I cried tears of joy, knowing this was what love was, and were love had brought me.  My family is forever.  I knew it and I KNOW it.  Without that knowledge I would fear life and I would fear death.  But I don’t need to fear, I don’t need to worry, because I know my family is eternal!!!!!!!!!!!



  1. Steffie,

    You family is eternal, period. Not because of what church you belong to or what ordinances have been performed, but because you exist. I know you are not saying this here, but why does love and life have to have a religious prerequisite?

    It sounds like you met your husband before joining the LDS church. You experienced that overwhelming love for him without aid from the church. It is very likely that you would have found meaning and everlasting joy with him regardless of what denomination you chose to join.

    You are lucky that you have found such bliss. Most go through life without ever experiencing what you have…Mormon or not.

    True love and companionship is helping someone else get thru this life irrespective of what is thrown at them. It is a journey that you choose to take together. It should not be about others telling you what do do, when to do it, or how to do it. It should be about the choices that you make as a team (family). Choices that bring you closer together and enhance the human experience.

    This is what I don’t like about religion. It teaches that true happiness is only found by following its interpretation of rules and regulations. I think that is bunk. Hearing you describe your feelings for your husband and children makes me believe that you would have that capacity whether you belonged to a religious group or not.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 15, 2007 @ 6:48 am |Reply

  2. Hi Steffie ,

    You say that you have sealed your family and that you will be together forever …. I believe thats yours anyway without having to go through a mediation service at a cost of 10% income for life and obedience to its leaders ( even to the point of having to practice polygamy secretly and against your will if ordered by a Church Leader )… see the history of the church …

    I believe my family are together irrespective of the Mormon Church , its something I have always felt instinctively and what do I do in return ? Love my neighbour as myself as I see them as families and people just like myself and the creator of the universe for this great hope ……

    Joseph Smith just took advantage of religious differences and peoples natural fears and created a whole religion based around the uncertainty people have .. In return he lived a privilaged life at their expense and sacrifice …. see the way he cruely tested them threatening to take their wives of them and its clear to me he wanted to see just how much power and control over them he really had and what he could get away with ..

    His own persecutions were no different to that of a mafia type gangster .They too get shot at, beat up but still continue business as normal .Some characters in life are just like that and religion is an avenue for some of them …

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 15, 2007 @ 10:17 am |Reply

  3. Well guys.

    So many amazing things have happened in the last 10 years. I knew things in my life were happening for a reason, I just didn’t know what that reason was. When I met the missionaries, I saw something in them, when I prayed I was given a new life, freedom, and happiness. When we were baptized I knew it was right, and then when we were sealed, I KNEW this what all those other things meant from the Last 10 years. Everything was clear, everthing made sense.

    Paying tithe is not a way in, Personally I think that giving back 10% to God is not a lot for Him to ask of us. I gladly tithe, not because we have to but because we want to. If anyone was to feel otherwise, in my opinion, they shouldn’t do it.

    And EJ remember I do not worship Joseph Smith, he is a man, he is not God. He may or may not have made mistakes, but it makes no difference to me. I will not sit here and defend someone I do not personally know. At the same time I don’t think it is right to attack him if you do not know these things first hand.

    All I can tell you is what I do know. I know my prayers were answered, I know God loves me, I know I will be with my family forever. I know all my life I struggled to understand, and now I have direction and meaning. I know what it’s like to be lost, and now I know what it’s like to be found!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 15, 2007 @ 12:18 pm |Reply

  4. This is a nice thing to know.

    Comment by Eric Nielson — October 15, 2007 @ 4:02 pm |Reply

  5. I suggest everyone read – “The Denial of Death” by Ernest Becker. 🙂

    Comment by conventryRM — October 15, 2007 @ 4:05 pm |Reply

  6. Steffie

    You said

    “I know I will be with my family forever”

    Well Im sure you will be , however in the Mormon religion they don’t teach that as a certainty .Its conditional on all your family following and obeying the Mormon Leaders …. If any of them should choose a different path then according to the LDS church , they will most likely end up in a lesser kingdom …. as is happening to lots of families in my ward …

    But the beauty of it all is that its not true the threats they are making anyway so you will be with your family …. The danger is if you actualy believe them and then the dysfunctional depressive element of Mormonism kicks in …

    The arguments ,kids leaving church or pressured to conform , the divorces , the need for a priesthood leader for entry into CK and the other way round depending which spouse is obsessed by the church etc etc

    I believe that you pay tithe because you want to and feel privilaged , but why don’t they extend that to all Mormons and not exlude them from being with eternal families if they don’t pay up ?

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 15, 2007 @ 4:11 pm |Reply

  7. EJ

    If you think about it, everyone really does have the chance, whether they pay tithe and whether they are a member of the church or not.

    I don’t know what members you are in contact with, but I don’t know any that are forced to conform. I do know a few (very few) who are divorced or are getting divorced. The few that I know are not doing so BECAUSE of the church, they are doing so because they decided not to be together.

    And threats, well I don’t know what you mean. I am responsible for my own life and what I choose to do with it. I have never been threatened. My children will also have to choose their path, as well as my husband. All I can do is do my best and hope that others do theirs.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 15, 2007 @ 4:56 pm |Reply

  8. “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. ”

    Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 – p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866

    Brigham made this statetment after the above
    J of D 13 page 95 – 1870

    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. “

    Comment by conventryRM — October 15, 2007 @ 6:35 pm |Reply

  9. Steffie

    If your children join the Catholic church later on , will your family be together forever ? What does the LDS church believe about this ?


    The Journal Of Discourses are a well justified reason I’ve held back from joining the LDS church …. and part of the reason why many leave ……

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 15, 2007 @ 9:32 pm |Reply

  10. steffielynn – Lovely story. I am sorry that the comments below your very touching post are so hostile. Frankly some are just plain ignorant (Bishop Rick). Families are only eternal if you make the “right” eternal choice. With that said, perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you came to the conclusion that the LDS church is the true path. As you have likely seen on my blog (since you commented on it), I have had difficulty getting more than, “You will feel a burning in the bosom that will show you the truth”. Surely there is more than that? My burning has always told me to go the other way. Has the church ever given you any evidence to conclude that the differences between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are truthful? It seems that LDS have the burden of proof on this one since Mormons are adding to the inspired word of GOD, but both Mormons and Christians except the Bible as the inspired word. I am honestly looking for a lucid argument for Mormonism. I can’t seem to get one.

    Comment by schooloffish — October 15, 2007 @ 10:55 pm |Reply

  11. School of fish

    Bishop Rick is a nice person, we just believe differently. EJ on the other hand……J/k

    Anyhow, I posted my conversion story if you are interested. 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 16, 2007 @ 6:15 am |Reply

  12. Steffie

    If your children join the Catholic church later on , will your family be together forever ? What does the LDS church believe about this ?

    I look forward to hearing from you 🙂

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 16, 2007 @ 2:05 pm |Reply

  13. Well I know we believe that we will have an opportunity when we die to accept the gospel. So yes, we will be together forever, even if they were catholic. Also, as you know the church does not teach, heaven or hell. We will all be judged fairly and we will be judged according to our heart and our knowledge. The Lord will not hold those accountable for things they did not understand or did not know. I have heard many church leaders speak of the celestial kingdom and righteous people. They have told me that there are people of other faiths who are righteous and will attain celestial glory!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 16, 2007 @ 2:41 pm |Reply

  14. That is not the Doctrine of the Church however. Only if they accept it in the afterlife that is why you do all the work for the Dead. SO you still have to be a Mormon to reach the Celestial Kingdom, as well as practice pologamy.

    Comment by conventryRM — October 16, 2007 @ 5:50 pm |Reply

  15. Steffie you said,

    “Well I know we believe that we will have an opportunity when we die to accept the gospel. So yes, we will be together forever”

    But you are assuming that Mormonism is true .In that case all of us will accept the mormon gospel if only mormonism is around after death !! .But thats unlikely because its not true …..We see the past polygamy as abuse and ‘rape’ of many young girls through Godly fear and intimidation … Our concscience would not allow us to partake in that crime ..

    Its no different to now , if we reject it now and choose an alternative , its likely it will be the same afterwards ….

    But there is no worry because families are together anyway , just not in the way you have been led to believe ..

    The church has in effect put itself between whats rightfully ours anyway …. The have no authority to do this whatsoever .

    The Mormon way holds people in bondage to the leaders through fear and guilt ….If you don’t renew your temple recommend then the Celestial is gone also ?…

    In my faith CoventryRm is saved for his desire to be honest which led him out of the church … welcome to the many mansions of God 🙂
    I hope you are honest too Steffie when you teach Investigators and they ask about the past 🙂 Please Don’t use milk before meat to hide things …

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 16, 2007 @ 7:12 pm |Reply

  16. I am saved.

    Here is what I believe. A: There is no way any of us know what happens when we die…. NO ONE! You may hope or have faith or believe in whatever myth feels good to you.

    My Myth – I believe that religion and some of the writings of so called sacred texts were written by both wise people trying to share their wisdom as well as some that just wanted to have power and control.

    I believe that “Heaven” or “Hell” whatever you want to call the two ends of the spectrum are just metaphors of how the choices we make and the way we live our lives can affect us and the people around us.

    I work everyday to try and create “Heaven” in my and my family’s life. Doing that is reward enough regardless of whether there is an afterlife or not. Since there is no way to know what happens when I die I don’t worry about, if there is something, I hope whatever carries on will also carry with it the “Heaven or “Hell” I have achieved.

    Like I said since I don’t and can’t know it doesn’t really matter or serve as a motivator, the impact I have and what I do in the now is enough for me.

    I don’t have to believe there are ferries in the bottom of the garden to appreciate and see its beauty. In fact I would take it a step further looking for the ferries would take away from my ability to really see the true power and beauty of the garden. Life is GREAT!

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 18, 2007 @ 2:34 pm |Reply

  17. EJ You say:

    “But you are assuming that Mormonism is true”

    Of course I am! Are you asking me to assume other wise, and then answer your question? This is what I believe, I do believe the church is true, and that my family will be together forever!

    Coventry RM, I think you may assume that people can be good even when taught otherwise. I don’t really agree. I think people who are taught bad things may not know how (to be good). Do you think being LDS at one time may have helped you to develop good traits? I just know it has helped me. I have always been good hearted, but I still did things that were really wrong. I personally need guidance, and that to me is one reason the gospel is so wonderful.

    I wouldn’t say I (we) believe in “fairies” or a “myth” I believe in a Creator, a Father, someone who loves us cares for us dearly. When I did not know Him my life was empty. Now my life is full.

    You are intitled to your personal beliefs though. We all are.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 18, 2007 @ 3:23 pm |Reply

  18. Bottom line is THEY ARE ALL MYTHS! To truly be enlightened you need to accept that. Why do you assign a negative meaning to the word myth. By definition it is a Myth.

    Yes Mormonism took me to a certain place in my life as would have any belief system that taught basic good values. Similiar to how I felt it important to be good so Santa would bring me gifts at Christmas. I outgrew both and am a much better human as a result of that growth. You are where I was 20 years ago. I beleive that some day you will see there is truth in what I am saying. – Does the end justify the means?

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 18, 2007 @ 3:34 pm |Reply

  19. steffie

    If Mormonism is true then that means that women are solely for the polygamous purpose of mormon godmen to procreate with in CK and if they can get away with it here as well , like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did ….

    If it wasn’t for the law then you would be in a religion where ploygamous marriages are arranged to men of high rank in the church …. and no disobedience allowed ..

    You are wanting the Jesus Christ of mainstream christianity but within a mormon context and they are not compatible ….

    You should belive that Jesus Christ is true and that your family will be together . Why did early Mormon women have to sacrifice their dignity by marrying and conceiving with old mormon men for this priviledge……

    In Mormonism your family will not be together … your kids will be populating worlds elsewhere themselves …..

    Do you believe that God also has his own earthly brothers and sisters doing the same as him somewhwere in the universe ? is he with his mum and dad right now also ?

    This families are together thing in Mormonism is non sensical ..

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 18, 2007 @ 3:39 pm |Reply

  20. Because we are not capable of understanding it. It is too much for our little brains. Coventry RM is correct. None of us KNOW what will happen when we die, and this is where faith comes in, I believe there is a God that he loves me and that I will be with my family forever. That is my belief. And You can believe as you wish, just don’t bash my belief

    Comment by steffielynn — October 18, 2007 @ 3:46 pm |Reply

  21. steffie

    if we don’t know what will happen when we die , why did Joseph Smith tell women they had to marry him for salvation then ? ( scare them )

    Why did Brigham Young threaten young girls into polygamy for their eternal salvation then as well ?

    I’m capable of understanding when people are being exploited .

    I’m not bashing your belief , I agreed and confirmed you would be with your family ……

    I’m questioning mormonism not christianity !

    You don’t seem to believe in real Mormon belief . maybe you are still on milk ?

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 18, 2007 @ 3:54 pm |Reply

  22. Everyone here is saying what they know to be true, from a faith and love standpoint. The problem is that those sometime get confused as being absolute truths.

    For example when a child says “Daddy you are the best Dad in the whole world” The child is speaking truth from her heart. It is spoken in faith and love. If it becomes an absolute truth we have a problem as the Child next door feels the same way about her Dad, logically they both can’t have the best Dad in the world but neither is wrong that is their truth neither one is lying, but it is not an absolute truth.

    As a Mormon I was told to teach the world about the Gospel, even those of other faiths I was basically saying , since I have the best Dad your Dad possibly can’t be the best therefore you are wrong and I am right. It is really a pointless debate.

    I feel however I can go to a Mormon and say I lived with your Dad as a child and what he claims to be true is without a doubt false. He is not the best Dad he deceived and abused me. It has taken time to heal and move on. I guess I just want to protect others my younger siblings if you will, from the same pain and deception.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 18, 2007 @ 8:28 pm |Reply

  23. Wow that’s actually a really good analogy. BUT, I could say the same thing as a member, that anyhting else (i.e. “christianity” or nothingness as I was before), is false and I was not happy, and The LDS church IS true because it works for me. So the beginning of your statement works, the end not so much, but I do understand it. It’s funny cause you are trying to lead people away from what I am trying to lead them to.

    But it’s brought myself and my family so much happiness, I have to share that, just like what you have has brought you happiness and you want to share it too. Basically what it boils down to is i’m right. Ha ha just kidding. But really though, people are going to have to decide for themselves. I cannot convince anyone that what I believe is “right”. And neither can you. We all just need to agree that we disagree and instead of putting each other down for what we believe we should just state our own beliefs and leave it up for those who read it to make up their own minds.

    You have to realize that some people are happy with their views and beliefs, and you should just be happy for them 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 18, 2007 @ 10:13 pm |Reply

  24. CoventryRM,

    It has already been established that Steffie is true.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 18, 2007 @ 10:25 pm |Reply

  25. “You have to realize that some people are happy with their views and beliefs, and you should just be happy for them”

    I have never said I am not happy for your happiness, in fact I have even agreed with you that Mormonism was probably a positive catalyst in your life. I have never judged that.

    You do however belong to an organization that makes it impossible for you to truly be happy for others outside of your faith. The last Conference talks were full of messages that non-Mormons could not have or know true happiness.

    These messages have such a subtle impact on how members view others they are not even aware of the damage such thinking causes. The damage it does to families that have diverse or different beliefs. Most Mormons that have non-member family members will tell you how tolerant and loving they are towards those people and truly believe it. Interesting though as you hear the story of those that have chosen a different path they almost always feels rejected and dismissed by most of their friends and family in the Church.

    I am more interested in challenging you to actually seek out truth through rational thinking and analyzing evidence and information.

    Study topic – Is there a good explanation for Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger:

    What do the apologetics say or do they just kind of admit to it then skip over it as insignificant? Do you think it is significant? What if you were Emma?

    Benjamin Johnson, a close friend of Joseph Smith, described Fanny as, “varry nice and comly, [to whom] everyone Seemed partial for the ameability of her character.” She is generally considered the first plural wife of Joseph Smith. Although undocumented, the marriage of Fanny and Joseph most likely took place in Kirtland, Ohio sometime in 1833. She would have been sixteen years old. At the time, Fanny was living in the Smith home, perhaps helping Emma with house work and the children. Ann Eliza Webb recalls, “Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem”.
    Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”. Ann Eliza again recalls: “…it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph’s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach…Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house…my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives…”
    Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair…” To calm rumors regarding Fanny’s relationship with Joseph, the church quickly adopted a “Chapter of Rules for Marriage among the Saints”, which declared, “Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with…polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife…” This “Article on Marriage” was canonized and published in the Doctrine & Covenants. In 1852, the doctrine of polygamy was publicly announced, thus ending eighteen years of secret practice. “The Article on Marriage” became obsolete and was later removed.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 5:07 am |Reply

  26. Conventry RM, I am willing to accept that JS was not perfect, and he may or may not have done this or that.

    However this will not change my view on the church. I don’t worship him, he was a man, an imperfect man.

    To be quite honest I do not trust others opinions about a situation or about somebody. I know that I can find both good and bad regarding the subject. I then have to decide which “side” to believe.

    So i have decided to trust in the Lord, whom I have faith will lead, and has led, me in the right direction.

    You cannot ever convince me with “logic” that there is no God. I feel Him deep in my soul. I have a knowledge of Him that no one can discredit.

    I think you get really annoyed by this, but this is who I am. I do have common sense. I do live in reality. Just because I trust my heart, that does not make me illogical.

    I do love people outside my faith. I do think it is possible to find happiness. But I am one of those they talked about in conference. Someone who was lost. I remember how it felt, I remember how my heart ached every minute of the day! Now I am whole and my heart is FILLED with joy.

    I know, i know, I say this all the time. But this is what this blog is for, so I can express my love and grattitude for the gospel.

    If I could I would shout it from my roof top, but I can’t get up there, it’s too steep 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 12:41 pm |Reply

  27. The Church constantly makes the claim that its truthfulness rests on if Joseph was a prophet of God and the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

    The Fanny Alger situation is undisputed by Church history it happened. As someone who is willing to go out and proclaim the truthfulness of the Gospel to others as you have with me on this blog, you at least owe me and everyone else an answer or explanation.

    A: Did God approve and condone JS having sex with a 16 year old? And if so why?

    My Patriarchal blessing tells me I am a lot like JS and should follow and study his life this behavior is a significant event and deserves an answer

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 3:20 pm |Reply

  28. steffie ,

    You speak about trusting The Lord but I believe that you are in effect trusting Joseph Smith and his revelations .

    His revelations revealed a Lord which forced him to have a marriage/affair with Fanny Alger and she’s only the first of many ….

    Is this the same Lord you trust ?

    I think its strange that Joseph Smith should get revelation to have marital affairs with young house maids and also to demand his followers wives …

    I know that CoventryRm is too decent a guy to follow Joseph Smith’s ways and thats one factor why he left the church .But in my ward there are some only to pleased to follow Joseph Smith’s ways of Marriages if they could get away with it and thats one reason why they choose to stay .They actually believe its their righteous privilage to be given young girls in CK for being obedient to the ‘church’ !

    I look forward to you response to CoventryRM ….

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 19, 2007 @ 3:53 pm |Reply

  29. CoventryRM and EJ

    “The Church constantly makes the claim that its truthfulness rests on if Joseph was a prophet of God and the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon.”

    True, but it also tells you to ask God for yourself, that’s what I did, and I recieved my answer.

    ” someone who is willing to go out and proclaim the truthfulness of the Gospel to others as you have with me on this blog, you at least owe me and everyone else an answer or explanation.”

    I don’t know the answer. If I don’t know the answer I will not make one up just to make you happy. I’m not interested in what he may have done. I know that there are many people out there who hate him, I know there are many who loved him. I do not know him. I will not pass any kind of judgement unless I was there, and I saw it for myself. I know he did have plural marriage, and YES i believe it was commanded by God. As far as anything else goes I DO NOT KNOW and I refuse to speculate.

    “So and so said they saw so and so doing this and that.” Anyone can say anything they want about anyone. that does not make it true.

    Again for the hundreth time the reason I share this Gospel is not because of Joseph Smith. The reason I share it is because this gospel changed me, and because I now know my Father in Heaven and my Savior. I hope and pray that everyone on this earth could have what I have, especially the lost and the hurting. I want them to know that they can be healed and that they have a Heavenly Father who loves them more then they will ever know!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 6:34 pm |Reply

  30. Have you even researched it?

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 6:47 pm |Reply

  31. Based on your above logic I am confused as to what makes you different from a sucide bomber you must have a line somewhere, where would logic and reason would come into play?

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 6:54 pm |Reply

  32. Yes, two years ago, before I joined the church. As you know I was raised anti, I was taught this stuff by my parents. Two and half years ago, I researched all these claims. I read it ALL!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 6:57 pm |Reply

  33. Wow!!!!!!What would make you say something like that?

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 6:58 pm |Reply

  34. You read it all?

    You have read ALL the Journal of Discourses? History of the Church? Mormon Doctrine? Those are the Church publications.

    The Anti

    No man knows my history
    Losing a lost tribe
    By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus
    Who really wrote the book of Mormon
    Leaving the Saints

    There is no way you could have read it ALL… this is just a short list. I read 2 to 3 Books a week and I haven’t read it all.

    Non Mormon topics that shoudl be read

    Guns Germs and Steel
    Misquoting Jesus
    The Denial of Death
    Constantines Sword

    Have you read the source material or just heard about it and read the apologetic response?

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 7:07 pm |Reply

  35. “Based on your above logic I am confused as to what makes you different from a sucide bomber you must have a line somewhere, where would logic and reason would come into play?”

    “Wow!!!!!!What would make you say something like that?”

    Because I want to know where your line is. To say is only GOD 100% and God over rules reason and logic – you must have a line you would not cross. Nephi killed Laban, JS took a 16 year old, what is your line. If GOd told you to kill someone what would do? People claim that all the time, even in the sacred texts you hold so dear. So what is your line? Would you have participated in the Mountain Meadows Masacre? So far you answer seems like a resounding yes, if you really believed God told you do so.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 19, 2007 @ 7:14 pm |Reply

  36. By All I obviously did not mean every single book out there. By all, I mean, it is all the same. All the books go over the same stuff. Over and over and over again.

    Why do you assume that just because I believe in God I do not have any common sense. To me it makes no sense to believe there is no God. I look at this amazing world and I KNOW it did not just happen by accident.

    You ask me if I would partcipate in the MMM. I would say no, but I don’t know all the circumstances. If my husband or children were in danger, then yes I would hurt someone. But I am human and I think that would be a human reaction. I do not think the MMM was commanded by God, I think it was human reaction.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 4:49 am |Reply

  37. “Why do you assume that just because I believe in God I do not have any common sense. To me it makes no sense to believe there is no God. I look at this amazing world and I KNOW it did not just happen by accident.”

    I don’t assume any such thing. We are not talking about Does a belief in God = no common sense. I think there are many people of faith that have plenty of common sense. Many of the great books I have read are by people of Faith. For example “When Religion becomes Evil” by Charles Kimball. The Author is a man of Christian Faith. It was a great book you should give it a read. I will come back to it later.

    My point is that every person of faith takes it to different degrees. I would hope you would agree that someone that straps on a bomb in the name of God and sets out to kill innocent people is not a rational person using common sense. Neither are the Christians out there that have invented or produced false science to put together a Creationism Museum in Kentucky.

    You have said over and over again that “God” told you it is true end of story. Now I don’t think you are actually claiming that God visits you in person and that you have actually seen and talked to God. I think you are saying that you have had some overwhelming spiritual experiences, feelings, emotions, still small voice talking to you in your head and thoughts etc. All of which are real and valid to you.

    What is the danger if we 100% rely on the above; I think the answer is obvious. I am pretty sure that if the God voice told you to kill your children, your rational side would immediately kick in and you would go get help. Take a hard look at what is going on in your brain. (I use extreme examples to make an obvious point not as a reflection on any opinion I have of you)

    The scary part comes when you study and understand how easily our emotions can be manipulated; history has shown this time and time again, both with or without Religion as the catalyst to incite otherwise good people to think and do evil things.

    From what you have said in your blog and what you have related about your past and your current situation. That in combination of what I know from being a missionary, temple worker, elder’s quorum presidency, stake missionary, Sunday school teacher, etc. I know you were very vulnerable to emotional manipulation.

    So the challenge to you is sorting out have you been rational or have you been emotionally manipulated. What is the source of your spiritual witness?
    Where is your line what have you had to rationalize to maintain your belief? Well we have already established the following:
    Prophets can be Pedophiles
    Prophets can commit Adultery
    God says discrimination was okay – racism – Blacks were considered Satan representative on Earth –
    Degrading Women as property – read J of D Brigham Young’s talks on Polygamy.

    This is a short list but does it really have to be any longer?

    This brings us back to the book I mentioned above, If you remember the first blog I commented the topic was “is it okay to speak ill of the lords anointed” The fact that question is even being debated or asked should come as a BIG warning sign. The LDS Church exhibits at least 3 of the 5 warning signs that Kimball discusses in his book.

    These are the reasons I don’t think you are using common sense and selling yourself short. Just take some time and listen to yourself and look at all things you have had to explain away. There is a very simple answer and I think deep down inside you already know it.

    Don’t let fear be your motivator, if you listen to what you say when you bare your testimony and talk about your past. It is very clear that you are motivated by fear and a lack of sense of self. The conference talks play on this. They may label the talk “faith and Love” but the underlying and subtle message is fear and guilt based. You can label or call anything you want but it doesn’t change what the core message really is.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 20, 2007 @ 2:47 pm |Reply

  38. I do not have a “sense of self” so I am vulnerable?

    I am neither of these things. I had a tough past, yes. You look into it much differently then what it REALLY is. Life is a challenge, and that challenge is, what we DO with what we are given.

    I was given a pile of poop. And I turned it into a pretty pink rose.

    I DID have fear and guilt, BEFORE I was LDS. I do NOT have those feelings anymore.

    You say I have been manipulated. I will tell you (because I am an expert on me) that I was not. I will tell you it was a number of things that brought me to where I am now, but I joined the church because My Father in Heaven loves me, because he took the fear and the guilt and the pain AWAY.

    When I knelt down in prayer this was not the answer I was expecting. I did not know what to expect. I did not know if He WOULD answer. I did not know if He would answer YES OR NO. I did not know if He would talk to me in my head or if I would see Him for myself. What actually happened was the last thing I expected. And as soon as I felt my heart become whole and freedom from my sins, I knew. It is the greatest, most amazing knowledge I could ever have hoped for.

    Everyone tries to come here and understand my experience. Or they try to explain it away. It is not easy to undertsand if you have not experienced this yourself. So all I can do is my best to explain it. And I could never do it justice.

    To compare me to someone who would strap a bomb to their chest and kill innocent people is obsurd, and it hardly deserves a response.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 3:17 pm |Reply

  39. “To compare me to someone who would strap a bomb to their chest and kill innocent people is obsurd, and it hardly deserves a response.”

    Read again I made it very clear that is NOT what I was doing.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 20, 2007 @ 3:28 pm |Reply

  40. My point was use the same common sense and reason to analyze Mormonism that makes you so different from the Suicide Bomber.

    I am surprised you took it in the way you did.

    Just look at what you have to accept and rationalize to maintain your belief. I don’t see what is so offensive about such a challenge.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 20, 2007 @ 3:50 pm |Reply

  41. steffie

    you said

    “To compare me to someone who would strap a bomb to their chest and kill innocent people is obsurd, and it hardly deserves a response.”

    I’m glad to hear this and I know you wouldn’t , but what if a circumstance came along that necessitated it and you were taught that the people are not innocent ?

    Follow The Prophet thing etc … Moses did order his Levite priests to slay the camp of Israel for an act of Baal worship and Mormons have restored Old Testament things afterall ?

    I understand that you can’t see any circumstance for it but Mormons believe that they will be persecuted at the last perhaps?

    Mountain Meadows .. how did that happen , Obedience to priesthood authority ? its scary to me ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 10:25 pm |Reply

  42. Brigham Young, JD: 5:332

    “You can see men and women who are sixty or seventy years of age looking young and handsome; but let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black…”

    I do go to CABO a lot and am getting quite darker through my apostacy

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 5:09 pm |Reply

  43. gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil.” JOD

    I thought the devil was without a body ??

    He also taught that those who had polygamous wives looked fresh ,young and sprightly , whilst the monogomous men would wither and dry up !

    I thought he hated polygamy and that it was a burden ? Doesn’t sound like it …. They seem to love it calling who they wanted .

    I would love to call my wife .Its alot easier than having to attract someone in the normal way !

    Comment by elder joseph — November 5, 2007 @ 5:24 pm |Reply

  44. EJ,

    Have you actually tried calling your wife?
    Who knows? Maybe it will work.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 5, 2007 @ 8:58 pm |Reply

  45. Bishop Rick

    I’m just not as convincing as Joseph Smith !

    I’d even try the ‘Angel with a Flaming Sword’ trick but i might look a fool 😦

    Comment by elder joseph — November 13, 2007 @ 5:53 pm |Reply

  46. Watched the first half of it and he was about a 1/2 step from being a Fred Phelps so I had to stop watching, couldnt quite stomach it.

    Comment by coventryrm — December 13, 2007 @ 8:23 pm |Reply

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