Mormons Rock

October 18, 2007

Missionaries

Two and a half years ago we had two missionaries knock on the door.  I remember that day clearly.  It was in April, it was a VERY cold day.  I was actually at my friends house for her little girls party.  There were a bunch of people at this party and we were all in the living room.  When we saw 2 missionaries walking up the driveway EVERYONE left the room, except me.  Now normally I would not answer the door, because well, this was not my home.  But because I was left alone I decided to answer.  So I opened the door, beer in hand, and there they stood.  Freezing, shaking, they introduced themselves to me.  I offered them a beer (yes I know it was rude, and I feel bad) but the graciously declined, and I saw this sparkle in them.  It was weird.  So I informed them this was not my house, and so they made an appointment to come to my home. 

When they came over I really gave it to them.  I was very ignorant about their beliefs, and so I began with a “mormons are going to hell”,speech and I remember them being so kind, and they then went over all my opinions and questions, and taught me some of what they actually believed.  Now I did not have the intention to listen to them, I was out to “save” them.  We ended our discussion and made another appointment. 

 So we had a few more discussions, and one day my husband came home early from work.  So he joined in.  He actually felt that what they taught made a lot of sense.  I was a little disturbed by this, and I informed the Elders I would never join their church.  Soon though my husband was fully involved and did not mind continuing our lessons.

  This is when I became very confused. For some reason we wanted these Elders around ALL the time.  We loved them.  They would leave our house and my husband and I would stand in our doorway feeling very sad.  They had something about them that we couldn’t figure out.  Something that left our home when they left. 

So at this time I was confused.  I felt like what they were saying was right. But how could this be?  Mormons were all going to hell!

 So I prayed.  And I found out that these Elders were speaking the truth.  And what they had was what I was missing.  And now That wonderful feeling is in my heart and in my home always.  We were able to reconize the spirit. 

Because these two missionaries loved the Lord so much they took 2 years out of their lives to spread the gospel.  They were the tool the Lord used to help my family find happiness and truth. 

I love missionaries, they by far the most amazing people I have ever met.  I will forever be grateful for what they did for my family.

When you have missionaries knock at the door, don’t be so quick to shoo them away.  They have an awesome message to share that will forever change your life!!!

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72 Comments »

  1. Steffie

    I’m not sure missionaries really want to give two years of their life in this way .There are many factors and influences

    1 Pressure to conform to parents wishes.
    2 Expectations in church .
    3 The blessings for serving a mission ie A hot chick to marry !
    4 Brought up from young to serve a mission/engrained in the culture.
    5 A suggestion from the Inspired Bishop ? who can turn down Gods voice to the ward ? usually for the older ones who serve .
    6 The thought of an adventure ?

    I agree some are really genuine but not all .I’ve spent two years with them and got to know them and I’m aware of the back chat they do about Investigators . Not all of them but one or two are unkind !

    They didn’t change my life , but they have made it more fun . My first missionary ( female ) promised me much for after the mission and delivered little. They will say anything for a baptism under psychological pressure.
    I had that many praises that it was obvious they were talking silly sales style patronising ( love bombing )for one thing only – baptisms…….
    When they finish their missions most soon loose interest in you ……

    This is my experience of two years ..My Testimony ! 🙂

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 18, 2007 @ 5:14 pm |Reply

  2. I still talk to mine, all the time infact. One went home 2 years ago, and the other a little over a year ago. We love them and always will. I’m sure there are missionaries who are not out for the right reasons, but I have never met any!

    In our area we have sisters. I just moved here and had never known sisters before. They are the most awesome chics I have ever met! They are like cupcakes, so sweet and you can’t get enough of them! And I thought i loved Elders! I love the way they teach and how much they care. I want to keep them forever!

    I just went to the missionary transfer meeting last week, there were probably 75 missionaries there. When they sang called to serve I balled my eyes out. Missionaries are amazing and I LOVE them!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 18, 2007 @ 7:48 pm |Reply

  3. YOU OFFERED THEM A BEER?!

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 18, 2007 @ 10:18 pm |Reply

  4. Yes, isn’t that awful! I told you i’ve changed! They were so sweet about it though, I was trying to offend them, and they were so nice about it, they just smiled and said no thanks, i felt bad. They have told me they NEVER would have thought I would get baptized! But here I am, and happy as can be 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 18, 2007 @ 10:30 pm |Reply

  5. I think its great. Missionaries have the most boring monotonous life. They need to be offered a beer every now and then to break things up. I know, I was a missionary once. It can get boring (depending on where you are of course). I went to Montreal where all of Quebec is Catholic. Even the public school system is run by the Catholic church. I was out knocking doors for 2 months before we even taught 1 discussion. And we were never offered a Beer.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 18, 2007 @ 11:07 pm |Reply

  6. When the missionaries knock on my door, I hope that I will be able to witness to them and bring them to the Jesus of the Bible. Having been a member of the LDS church, there is nothing they can say that I don’t all ready know about the church. I think it’s really sad how LDS church has these young people try to convert people to a false doctrine and false Jesus.Yes, I know , but you do believe in the Jesus of the Bible. Then tell me where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is our elder brother? On top of that Hinckley even said that you don’t believe in the “traditional Christ”.
    When Christian missionaries witness to people they aren’t trying to convert them to a religion, only bring them to Jesus. They don’t try to save the people who are already saved, who are going to church, and who know Jesus as their Savior.

    Comment by Misty — October 19, 2007 @ 3:55 am |Reply

  7. As the mother of a returned missionary, I must say that this is awesome! I loved reading your conversion story and listening to this young elder. The birds singing in the background and that beautiful music all combined to make it a stirring interview. I was thinking how great it would be if his mother could see/hear this because moms miss their sons so much!

    P.S. “Called to Serve” has that effect on me too.

    Comment by marlajayne — October 19, 2007 @ 11:18 am |Reply

  8. Misty, why so hostile? You have found the “true” Jesus????

    Well so have I and I found Him in the LDS church. The scriptures tell us we are all children of our Heavenly Father. We were all created by Him. If we are all His children that makes us all siblings. Even Christ and Satan.

    The missionaries are amazing, they are not out to convert only christians, their message is for EVERYONE! And I’m beyond grateful for them! They show through their example, what it is to be Christ like!!!

    Marlajayne

    Thank you for your sweet comments! Tell your son thank you from a convert 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 1:11 pm |Reply

  9. Steffielynn

    Why do you brand about the word hostile when someone disagrees with you ?

    Misty talks about belief in Jesus but you are a believer in a ‘church’ and its system of obedience and ordainances and she asks a simple question

    Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is our elder brother ?

    and where does it say satan is our brother and jesus’s brother ?

    …..also I’d like to ask where does it say in the bible that The Mark Of Cain is a black skin ?

    Missionaries are too young, naive and impressionable to be going out converting people .The church sends them for that reason , they will believe anything they are told in church and MTC .They should be taught correct and truthfull church history first and then sent as Adults with some real experience of life and the world .Instead they are sent out to convert themselves … and anyone vulnerable on the way !

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 19, 2007 @ 3:02 pm |Reply

  10. Yes, I have found the REAL Jesus. I don’t think I’m being hostile at all. I am simply asking a question. The LDS may believe in Jesus, but closer examination reveals they truly do believe in a different one than mainline Christians.

    Comment by Misty — October 19, 2007 @ 4:34 pm |Reply

  11. Sorry, maybe hostile is the wrong word. Rude is probably better. To be quite honest I am tired of people comming on here (and In real life) telling me I don’t know my Savior. You say you know the “real” one which implies that because I am LDS, I know a fake one. Believe as you wish. But do not come here and try to tell me what I believe is wrong. I am here to share my beliefs, NOT to critisize others beliefs.

    I used to be a “christian” I used to think all I needed was to believe in Christ to be “saved”. That’s when I was drinking, cussing, lying, and being judgemental. I have now learned how to be Christ like, and that he lived on this earth and taught us how to live. I love Him with every fiber of my being. He knows that, and to me that is all that matters!

    There IS a difference regarding what we believe ABOUT Him. I believe He is Gods son, you believe He is God. Maybe you are right, does this mean I will now burn in Hell for my beliefs?

    If I am correct and you are the one who is wrong I DO NOT believe you will burn for eternity just because you did not understand exactly who He was!

    Rom. 8: 16-17, 21
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

    Comment by steffielynn — October 19, 2007 @ 6:13 pm |Reply

  12. I don’t know your heart, only God does, so I can’t say where you will spend eternity. The LDS don’t believe in the Biblical hell anyway, so they can’t say that someone will “burn” in hell.

    So far you’ve called me rude and hostile just because I don’t believe that the LDS church is correct, explain to me how that’s being Christ like? Are the LDS missionaries being rude or hostile when they tell people that “their church” is the “only true church” and that all the other ones are flawed, and corrupt?

    When LDS ,and Christians talk about being saved and grace, they are using the same words, but mean something completely different.

    I know the LDS believe that you are “saved by grace, after all you can do”. To me this implies that you are responsible in some way for your own salvation.

    As a Christian I know that I am saved by grace. There is nothing that I can do to earn my salvation. My “good works” as the LDS would call it, are a result of my salvation. This doesn’t mean that I can go off can disobey all of the ten commandments. If I could do that, then to me that would mean that I wasn’t really “saved” in the first place.

    Comment by Misty — October 19, 2007 @ 9:59 pm |Reply

  13. steffie

    You don’t want to criticise others beliefs , but what about the Fist Vision that the LDS church is built upon …

    ” No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
    19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
    20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;”

    and you wonder why we raise matters with you ?

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 19, 2007 @ 11:46 pm |Reply

  14. steffie

    you said “I used to be a “christian” I used to think all I needed was to believe in Christ to be “saved”. That’s when I was drinking, cussing, lying, and being judgemental. I have now learned how to be Christ like…. ”

    I heard similar in our ward from converts both Catholics prior , although their prior lifestyle sounded alot worse and more serious .However I said the same to both of them , that the Catholic Church did not teach them to behave that way because I know , I have been brought up Catholic .They have themselves to blame and not the church …..

    I hear a similar thing from JW converts , non of that means their church is the only true one etc .. It just means they found a trigger to make changes from their own stupidity or in JW’s case its usually Fear .. Noahs Ark style !

    However I commend you on your desire to change, I have done the same myself but deep inside I still am unworthy as I realise I’m not good enough to be what I’ve read in LDS books .Have you read Spencer Kimballs Miracle of Forgiveness ?

    And remember your belief is in Joseph Smith’s and then Brigham Youngs Jesus Christ even though you like to relate him to the New Testament one .I don’t believe they are the same person ….

    If I’m wrong I’ll accept my damnation honourably ……

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 12:27 am |Reply

  15. Misty

    You say “So far you’ve called me rude and hostile just because I don’t believe that the LDS church is correct, explain to me how that’s being Christ like?”

    I do not call you rude and hostile because you disagree, I say this because of the comment you made. Here you can read it again for yourself

    “I think it’s really sad how LDS church has these young people try to convert people to a false doctrine and false Jesus.”

    You called my faith “false”. You say I believe in a “false” Jesus. Do you REALLY not see a problem with that? If you are trying to convince someone that your belief is correct, you don’t come out throwing around insults. And yes saying that my belief is “false” is definetly an insult.

    Ej,

    The Jesus Christ I know is everyone’s Jesus. He loves all of us and has saved us ALL.

    Bishop Rick,

    See, my impatience is showing, I hope you don’t think differently of me 🙂 Ej is really starting to get to me! ha ha ha 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 5:05 am |Reply

  16. Misty, you say

    “As a Christian I know that I am saved by grace. There is nothing that I can do to earn my salvation. My “good works” as the LDS would call it, are a result of my salvation. This doesn’t mean that I can go off can disobey all of the ten commandments. If I could do that, then to me that would mean that I wasn’t really “saved” in the first place.”

    Misty I find this statement totally contradicting. How can you say “I am saved, but I have to follow the commandments or I’m not really saved….”

    If salvation can not be earned then ALL you have to do is believe. If you throw in, “oh… and you have to follow the commandments, or you are not really saved” then you are really saying, “you are saved by grace, after all you can do”.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 5:11 am |Reply

  17. So I guess the answer to my question “Are the LDS missionaries being rude or hostile when they tell people that “their church” is the “only true church” and that all the other ones are flawed, and corrupt?” Your answer would be, No?

    Why is it that the LDS can say that the Christians believe false, or incorrect things about Jesus and God,etc, but non-LDS aren’t allowed to do the same about the LDS doctrines?

    When I said that I know I can’t go out ,and disobey all of the ten commandments, and still call myself saved, I was referring to the idea that someone can loose their salvation.
    I believe that you can’t, others believe that you can, and that’s ok.

    Why do you feel like you are loosing your patience?
    I thought we were having a friendly dialog, I feel no animosity to you at all. If you feel that I am being mean you need to jump over to youtube.com, and do a search for LDS Protesters, or Mormon Protesters, those people aren’t being very nice.

    Comment by Misty — October 20, 2007 @ 2:06 pm |Reply

  18. steffie

    The Jesus Christ you know is confirmed from D&C from Joseph Smith’s claim to revelation . The Mormon belief is that Jesus ORDERED Joseph Smith to marry his house maids and to marry other mens wives and to ask for their wives …. to marry 14 year olds for their salvation sake into a high place in CK etc etc

    You are wanting the Christian Worlds Jesus but I’m certain that Misty does not recognise the mormon one as her saviour and neither do I …… he scares me commanding polygamy and scaring young teens into marrying old men .thats the reality of the mormon Jesus .

    Now stop pretending otherwise …. You can’t have it both ways.

    How can you get upset at misty calling your faith false ….. read your own scripture

    here it is again

    “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;”

    Have you read it and understood it ? 🙂

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 2:16 pm |Reply

  19. The missionaries do not Knock on someones door and upon the first time meeting them they say “your doctrine is false” That doesn’t happen, not only that, it is not what the LDS believe. We believe that other churches do not have the fullness of the Gospel. There are many wonderful churches out there. Doing the best they know.

    I feel no animosity towards you misty. I just get tired of people who imply that I do not know who my Savior is. I hold Him very dear to my heart. It is as if you are saying I don’t know my best friend, the one who is always there for me, the one who protects me, the one who loves me.

    I think a nice converstaion begins like this

    “I disagree with your beliefs and here is why…”

    or

    “This is what I believe……..”

    I love to discuss these things, I LOVE to hear others beliefs, JUST as long as my beliefs are not being disrespected.

    Misty, you are more then welcome here.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 2:37 pm |Reply

  20. EJ

    I have read that statement MANY times. And when I first read it I was not LDS. I was not offended by it at all. I was searching for a church that made sense, because I had not found one. I understood the meaning in the statement.

    Here is what I got from fair.org…..

    “Nowhere does this verse state that Methodism, or any other denomination, is “condemned of God.” Anti-Mormons love to claim Mormons have somehow attacked “Christianity” (of course since Latter-day Saints are Christian, the charge is ludicrous); I suppose such flawed logic is necessary to justify their attacks. What the verse above refers to, quite clearly, is the “creeds” which are abominations, and (somewhat more ambiguously) “those professors were corrupt.”

    A serious look at the “creeds” of historic Christianity will reveal that they indeed are abominations (or “polluted” per Webster’s 1828 dictionary)–that they are heavily influenced by Greek philosophy.22

    Who were the “professors” which were “corrupt”? And what does it mean to be “corrupt?” The 1828 Webster’s dictionary number one definition for professor is:

    One who makes open declaration of his sentiments or opinions; particularly, one who makes a public avowal of his belief in the Scriptures and his faith in Christ, and thus unites himself to the visible church.

    It’s possible that the “professors” refers to those who formulated the “creeds” or perhaps to those who, in Joseph Smith’s day, proclaimed these creeds. In either case, the “professors” seems to be tied to those who supported the “creeds.” Of the many 1828 definitions for “corrupt,” the ones which make the most sense based on “creeds” which were “abominations” are the following: “tainted; unsound; lose purity; infected with errors or mistakes; polluted.” In other words, those who proclaimed the (polluted) “creeds” are themselves “infected with errors or mistakes” for proclaiming such creeds. The Lord’s statement in Joseph Smith History 1:19 is a condemnation of the creeds and the teaching of such false doctrine–not an objurgation against any denomination”

    http://www.fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20108.html

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 2:42 pm |Reply

  21. steffie

    just to recap on the mormon apologist statement

    “The Lord’s statement in Joseph Smith History 1:19 is a condemnation of the creeds and the teaching of such false doctrine–not an objurgation against any denomination”

    1 firstly this is not the Lords statement .
    2 If its not against any denomination , then who is it against ?
    3 Who was teaching false doctrine at the time ?

    This apologist answer doesn’t make sense .

    The Lords Version

    “I was answered that I must not join the MORMONS , for they are wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors (BYU) were all corrupt;”

    explain this one then as well …

    1 Ne. 14: 10
    10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 4:21 pm |Reply

  22. I would say the creeds He is speaking of are the Nicene Creed, and the doctrine of a triune God. Just to name a few. And the Professors would be the creaters of the creeds and those who teach them. The Lord is saying they are incorrect. He is not saying all churches are bad, the people are doing the best they know. He says these man made doctrines ARE.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 6:54 pm |Reply

  23. Steffie

    you said

    “He is not saying all churches are bad, the people are doing the best they know. He says these man made doctrines ARE.”

    I don’t know how you water this down so much , if you read the early apostles and prophets in JOD’s and other church publications then they obviously believed different from you ….. I’m glad that you know/believe better than those apostles and prophets ….

    The creeds …They are not man made doctrines ….they are from the bible …..

    The Father is god
    the Son is God
    the Holy Spirit is God
    there is only one God .. etc

    The book of Mormon teaches the same .Read the testimony of the three witnesses …..
    And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris

    Also Alma 11
    44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is ONE ETERNAL GOD, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    The LDS church believed this until Joseph Smith said different later on ..

    The original D&C had The Father as a spirit and the son as a tabernacled being …. The belief to an embodied tangible God came many years later …..

    Its possible the LDS creeds are wrong and an abomination …. thats the beauty of religion …..

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 10:12 pm |Reply

  24. “We believe that other churches do not have the fullness of the Gospel. There are many wonderful churches out there. Doing the best they know.”

    I find this a very interesting statement and have used it when I was a Mormon and it is what I call one of the textbook Mormon answers. The problem is this, to anybody other than a Mormon this is a very condescending and very smug statement. It is very true LDS seem to label anything said derogatory or offensive or at least an attack or some sort of persecution. It amazes how unaware of it they actually are.

    Take my family for example, At this point I would say in my immediate family of siblings and their offspring close to half are no longer believers in the LDS faith. There are 4 of us, myself and a sister and most of her children are not LDS, my wife and I as well as 2 of my 4 my kids. The other Brother and Sister and their families are very active along with my Dad and his Wife. They will sit around at family gatherings and talk about LDS topics, put down other beliefs or religions etc. but if for one minute my sister or I or any of our kids challenged or took offense to what they were saying their jaws would drop and the look of shock and horror that someone would put down their church or beliefs.

    I think this is the danger for anyone or church that make “Absolute Truth Claims” No matter how much you think you are accepting of another’s faith or belief it is somewhat impossible when you believe, truly believe that you and your church and only you and your church have the whole truth. I know the typical answer here is that “All Churches believe that way” I am not so sure that is true anymore, I think as the information age as opened so many peoples eyes and we are finding out so much we didn’t know before, regarding the origins of the bible beliefs and religions world wide and how they all relate and came to be. More and more people of religious faith are starting to understand that you are all praying to the same God worshipping the same God, you are just using different names and different symbolism to represent your faith.

    It seems to me that the main point of religious faith is basically to give us our moral compass to guide us in the basic principle of love one another. The debate seems to be one of – We know that we should all stop at a red light, to do otherwise could cause danger or harm to not only us but to others. We all receive the same rewards, benefits, blessings whatever you want to call it for stopping at the light. What good does it do us to argue who is responsible for the light? Some might think it was the County, some may argue it was the City. The only thing that matters is that we stop.

    I read a pretty good book recently, I think people of Faith would probably actually be more in agreement with it than I was. None the less I learned a lot from it and it helped to give me a better perspective on some things, for one more appreciation and understanding of the Muslim faith. I would suggest all that feel the need to talk and debate faith and religion to read it. It is written by a man of Faith so it is NOT an attack on religions at all. “When Religion Becomes Evil” By Charles Kimball.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 22, 2007 @ 3:10 pm |Reply

  25. Not everyone who says this, says it, JUST to SAY it. Just cause it sounds good. This is what I know. I do not have ANY bad feelings toward any religion or denomination, but I do believe that they are missing a few peices of the puzzle. If that is insulting I apologize. I wish that everyone could have the same knowledge I do! I would give it away if I could, but this is the best I can do. 🙂

    You give the analogy of the stop light:

    ” It seems to me that the main point of religious faith is basically to give us our moral compass to guide us in the basic principle of love one another. The debate seems to be one of – We know that we should all stop at a red light, to do otherwise could cause danger or harm to not only us but to others. We all receive the same rewards, benefits, blessings whatever you want to call it for stopping at the light. What good does it do us to argue who is responsible for the light? Some might think it was the County, some may argue it was the City. The only thing that matters is that we stop.”

    But what about those who never took a drivers training class? Or those who don’t know how to drive? Or those who were taught how to drive reckless, or on the wrong side of the road. Those people need to be taught right? If someone has never seen a red light how do they know to stop?

    The Lord has asked us to spread the gospel to ALL the world. I feel that EVERYONE can benefit from it!~

    Also If your family speaks ill of other churches it should not reflect as the view of the church, only the person saying it. Again it goes back to “the gospel is true the people are not!” 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 22, 2007 @ 8:31 pm |Reply

  26. steffie

    you said ” but I do believe that they are missing a few peices of the puzzle”

    thats ok with me but your church believes the main pieces missing are

    1 Polygamy – This is the order of Heaven .God is a polygamist .

    2 Authority – not one other religion had any authority except the LDS ( Males only ).

    3 Morality – I know this is controversial but I know what the Mormons think of others morals .. at least in my ward ..

    4 Word Of wisdom – Yet Jesus said in Matthew 15

    11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

    17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

    18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

    19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    5 Have you seen the Temple endowment pre 1990 where the ceremony has a Trained Minister doing a deal with Satan to teach his religion in return for money … and you say you just think others have pieces missing ?

    Was this an error then ?

    Comment by elder joseph — October 22, 2007 @ 10:11 pm |Reply

  27. It is really to bad you didn’t get a chance to go through the temple when I did, based on the oaths and covenents I took and have broken I should have been stricken down long ago. It is okay with me if you all want to call me Judah by the way.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 12:49 am |Reply

  28. Come on – you don’t really beleive that in this day and age people don’t know about basic morals and values. People just have the free agency to choose, the guy that runs the yellow knows exactly what he is doing. I am talking basic Moral Values. Not the invented sins like drinking a beer or coffee. Some of the most dishonest business people I have ever met have been temple reccomend holders.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 1:04 am |Reply

  29. I’m talking basics as well. And it’s true that some have a really good moral compass, but it is not true of everyone. All you have to do is look at the world. If everyone had a better upbringing we would have a better world. I have worked in some pretty narly places. I have seen a lot of lost people.

    I will give you one example of this (I have many if you want to hear them).

    I worked in a home for girls in the mountains of Colorado. They were from 11 to 17 years old. These were girls who were either sent away because their family sent them there, or they (the majority) “belonged” to the state. It was the best/worst job I have ever had. I cried a lot the year I worked there. These girls had been used, abused, and neglected. They wanted love so bad, but they were so angry and alone. They had never been taught right from wrong, and some were even ONLY taught wrong. There were some who were a little better off then others, and some of them were already gone. If there was any natural knowledge of good and evil it was wiped out and erased by their parents. It’s an awful horrible cycle that few will break.

    So I disagree that there are not people who either don’t know or have been taught evil, and therefore practice and teach evil themselves.

    There are most certainly people who need guidence. I personally was not as bad as some, but I was in no way good. I needed guidence. And I am thankful that I now have it!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 2:48 am |Reply

  30. I won’t argue that there is always exceptions to the rule.

    I found my missionary journal

    Here is a entry from September 29 1982

    “We visited a woman tonight, she has been studying with the JWs I hope she will pray and find truth on her own rather than to go to her JW friends for information about the Church.

    Sometimes it is really like we are fighting a battle, I guess in a way we are. Satan is so deceiving at the different ways he keeps people from the truth. I just hope and pray that we can will most of the battles.”

    One other comment –
    “Also If your family speaks ill of other churches it should not reflect as the view of the church, only the person saying it. Again it goes back to “the gospel is true the people are not!”

    I am sure in my 30+ years as a member of the church I have been around a much larger sample of Mormons and Mormon families than you have experinced in your two years. I would say my family is definently the rule rather than the exception.

    Why is when Mormons do something Good – we get –

    “we shall know them by their fruits”

    But when they don’t we get “the gospel is true the people are not!”

    That fact that you find youself consistently arguing both sides should tell you something.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 3:41 am |Reply

  31. Coventry RM
    I agree with you ,I’ve experienced and heard about the sinister and judgemental fruits of mormonism and I always got that cliche church is perfect but the people are not excuse …

    and at the end of the day I realised they are no different to people I have been used to associating with most of my life . I might add however that I’ve always been surrounded by love, family and people with a desire to do good …. I guess thats just luck and not anything to do with valiancy in the pre mortal life …

    Steffie

    I understand why you joined the church and I think it was probably a good thing for your circumstance , that doesn’t mean the church is the only true church , it just means you found a fraternity of people inspiring you and teaching to do good always (in class at least) ….

    I find I have improved since associating with the church the last two years .However I couldn’t preach the church to others as I know the real history and my conscience wouldn’t allow it .But if it meant reforming an alcoholic , a suicdal depressive , a violent person , an abusive spouse etc then It might be justifyable to mislead them if that is the trigger for the change …… the later on when or if they find out the real truth ………. well thats another story !

    I heard a conversion story from a recent member . His life was so bad and meaningless before that I wouldn’t even dream of telling him the real history , it would killl him …. Yo me his conversion is a success story up until now .See how he copes with the fear and guilt of standards to be kept …

    Comment by elder joseph — October 23, 2007 @ 4:56 pm |Reply

  32. I joined the church because my prayer was answered, I could not have imagined how amazing the Gospel was, and how much it would change my life!!!!!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 6:10 pm |Reply

  33. My experience and observation has been when a religion saves someone from Alcoholism or some other form of addiction they basically end up just exchanging a destructive addiction for a more productive or less destructive one. I see the same thing when a Member of the Mormon faith leaves and takes up with some other Church with just as much fanaticism and visa versa.

    I agree that initially this is a great thing if it helps to make the person healthier or less destructive. The problem is once again their growth stops and they live in blissful denial. The basic behavior and pattern is still there, they are just dependent on another form of self medication. In my experience very few people really take the time to change their destructive patterns but just change how it looks from the outside and religion especially allows them to find that next stopping place.

    For example let’s take parenting: Before finding religion perhaps a person berates or is verbal abusive to their kids, all religion is potentially going to do is provide a more subtle way (Which can be even more damaging) and one that is outwardly accepted by those around them and just a different way to control and manipulate their children. My experience is that Mormonism creates a haven for Dry Alcoholics’, and extreme co-dependent behavior.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 6:58 pm |Reply

  34. My friends,

    You try to explain away my beliefs and experiences only because you cannot understand them. If you could experience just for one moment what it is like to have nothing, and no one, and be completely lost, and then to find love and happiness and safety you would not say such things. Do not trivialize my experiences. Unless you have been through hell, and back again you could not come close to understanding!

    I am VERY grateful for my perspective!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 8:10 pm |Reply

  35. My response was to EJ’s comment and my perspective on personal growth. Your beliefs are your beliefs. I do know a few people that are exceptions to the perception I described above. Only you know if you are.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 10:36 pm |Reply

  36. Oh sorry, I’m on the defense
    🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 10:46 pm |Reply

  37. steffie

    How is it that most conversions I have witnessed are either People with a desperately sad backround whatever the circumstance or desperate Asylum seekers ( especially here in the UK ) .I admire the church for not being judgemental toward them but its obvious they are just using the church for their own agenda unfortnately ..

    Why don’t people with stable happy productive lives like myself get that conversion feeling .I’ve read the Bof M , i read all my Ensigns , the D&C and lots of church books and yet I see a man who exploited his followers ! Joseph Smith and then another one Brigham Young !

    I don’t see representatives of jesus Christ in their actions and teachings unless my perception of jesus christ is totally wrong and that he likes Men to command women into obedience and arranged polygamous marriages etc ..

    Why is it I feel so sorry for the early mormons who suffered under these two leaders/tyrants …

    Where is my conversion moment I was promised for reading the bofM , folowing WOW , church every week without fail and more !

    Where is this happiness you all claim to have .Is it any different from my own ?

    If your going to hell and back agin is anything like what I heard the other day from a recent convert then I wouldn’t want to dissuade you anymore ……

    Am I insincere I ask myself .I have been told that if I pray with a sincere heart then I will get a testimony of the BofM truthfullness ?

    Comment by elder joseph — October 23, 2007 @ 11:42 pm |Reply

  38. In section 121 of the Doctrine and Convents – Joseph and others were once again being held in jail – for months under unbearable conditions – he pleads with the Lord – saying “O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding pace? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thy eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?” once can almost feel the pain in Joseph’s voice pleading with the Lord – he goes on further to ask how long must this suffering continue? – The Lord relpies in verse 7 – “My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment”

    And then in verse 34-37 the Lord says –
    Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
    “Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
    “That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
    “That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” (D&C 121:34-37.)
    To me this is the true test of a prophet of God – Joseph, if he were not of God and was just trying to mislead his followers would have called on them in the name of God to storm the jail and get him out – he would have said it was God’s command that they do so – and they would have followed him – But no – Joseph being a true prophet – said just what the Lord had him say –
    To me – 121 is one of those ah-ha’s that we get –

    Hope this help

    Comment by happyman4 — October 24, 2007 @ 12:12 am |Reply

  39. E J

    People who have known pain and have known sorrow are very humble. They have no pride, the are broken and know that they need help. When you have experienced extreme sadness, when you have felt that you were all alone, and then find happiness you will really feel it. When you know pain you can also know healing, when you know sadness you can also know happiness, when you have felt deep sorrow, you can FEEL Joy.

    When you go before the Lord, just as the scriptures say, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, you are open to really hearing Him, and really being healed.

    People who have experienced this can say they KNOW, and it makes for very strong members.

    You ask

    “Where is my conversion moment I was promised for reading the bofM , following WOW, church every week without fail and more!”

    You must ask yourself ; Am I here for the right reasons? Am I here to prove the church wrong, or am I here to really learn?

    Looking at all your comments here and else where it seems to me that you never gave any of it a chance. Did you go into it with an opinion already formed?

    It also seems that you have hit up a whole lot of Anti sights, or at least a lot of people who have warped views about what the LDS believe.

    You must also see the blessings before you. You say you are keeping the word of wisdom because you are in better health, you also say that you have become a better person, What wonderful blessings those are! And I might add that you have met some pretty sweet LDS friends!

    Just open your heart, let go of all the pre conceived notions, start fresh, humble yourself, and pray for God to help you with these things! He will 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 24, 2007 @ 3:07 am |Reply

  40. Wow. It is too bad there is so much arguing in this world.
    I love Jesus Christ. He is My Savior. I know that without Him, I could never return to live with God again. It would be utterly impossible. I believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament; the same Jesus that healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, and made the ultimate sacrifice. I believe in the Jesus that laid down his life, and took the sins of the world upon Him. Without that single, selfless act, I could never make it to heaven, no matter how good I was, and neither could anyone else. I believe that Jesus taught the way to live a happy and productive life. This is the Jesus I believe in. Am I a Christian then? I guess that depends on your description of a Christian. I absolutely believe in Jesus Christ. I am a Christian. I have accepted Him as my personal savior. I am a Christian. I have confessed that he is the Son of God, and the Savior. I am a Christian. According to the standard of the Christian world, yes, I am a Christian. I am also an active Mormon. It is because I am a Latter Day Saint that I have these beliefs. I don’t believe in the “traditional” Jesus, because that is a false tradition. Show me where in the Bible that the Trinity is taught. Actually, Webster’s dictionary (take it for what it’s worth) says that the Trinity is a Christian Tradition, and is not backed up scripturally. Interesting.
    I’m not here to argue, or to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m here to tell you what I know. I know the complete truth. I served a mission because I knew that the church was true. Believe me, I’ve read my share of Anti-mormon literature. I almost left the church because of it. The reason I didn’t is because I asked God what was right. I didn’t ask for Heavenly Father to tell me that the Mormon Church was right. I asked for the Lord to show me the truth. I didn’t care if it was the LDS church or not. I didn’t care if it was Baptist, Hindu, or anything else. I wanted truth. Heavenly Father blessed me with an answer, and I will always remain faithful to the Church of Jesus Christ that has been restored to the earth by living prophets.
    Thanks for this blog.

    Comment by fuffy — October 25, 2007 @ 6:21 am |Reply

  41. Fuffy,

    Thank you so much, your comment is inspiring! And you are right there is way too much arguing. We get a little serious here sometimes, thanks for bringing us back around 🙂

    Steff 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 25, 2007 @ 12:06 pm |Reply

  42. fuffy

    you say
    “I know the complete truth” . What complete Truth ? You just believe the words of one man Joseph Smith and those who did the same in his day paid a big price .They even handed over their wives to him .

    The Trinity is a simple afirmation of biblical teachings

    The Father is God
    The Son is God
    The Holy Ghost is God
    Their is only one God

    Hence those three persons are the one God . Its the same in the Book Of Mormon . It teaches on God in Three Persons…

    The concept of Mutiple Gods came later on in The Book Of Abraham in 1842.

    You said ” Show me where in the Bible that the Trinity is taught.”

    Show me in the bible where God was once a man is taught or that he has many wives …… or that we will rule our own planets or men will be polygamists in C K …..

    I don’t believe that you believe the bible really .You actually believe what Joseph Smith said .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 25, 2007 @ 12:27 pm |Reply

  43. Fluffy –

    Prayer is an amazing thing – it frees us to discover what is really true as you have discovered – Amen to you brother.

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 12:29 pm |Reply

  44. So much for being nice – someone bears their heart and their beliefs and there comes someone to try and shoot them down –

    The Jewish people have the Torah – which we all accept as the written law – they also have an oral law that is not written – but no less is followed by devote members – Catholics believe in the bible – but they also have the Traditions of the church –

    We as LDS have the PoGP, D&C, BoM and prophets to guide us –

    If you don’t believe what we do – that’s fine – but please don’t belittle anyone that does.

    Peace, Grace and Love

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 12:38 pm |Reply

  45. Ej
    stop arguing!!! (ha ha is that possible with YOU 🙂 )

    I think you are trying so hard to prove the gospel wrong, because deep inside you think it is true, and maybe that is freaking you out!

    Read this, https://mormonsrock.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/christ-takes-the-slums-out-of-people-and-then-they-take-themselves-out-of-the-slums/

    it is perfect for what we discussed up above 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 25, 2007 @ 12:40 pm |Reply

  46. I didn’t plan on saying anything else, but after reading but I do want to write one last thing. I hope I don’t say anything that comes across as rude. I’m just going to be blunt. I could prove all of this to you with the bible, but I won’t. It wouldn’t matter anyway. You’ve already got your mind set on mormonism not being true. No matter what I say, you would tell me that it was my interpretation of scripture. It would be futile to try to prove these things. When you honestly and sincerely want to find what is right, then I’ll be more than happy to talk to you about it. Until then, no. If this is what you’re after, I would stop wasting my time tearing down someones religion and start finding out for myself what it right. If this isn’t what you’re after, then I would stop wasting my time tearing down someones religion, and find some way to better my life or help the world.

    Comment by fuffy — October 25, 2007 @ 3:00 pm |Reply

  47. fuffy

    you said ” When you honestly and sincerely want to find what is right, then I’ll be more than happy to talk to you about it”

    What you really mean is when I am ready to believe your version of things …

    Why don’t you answer my question .It was quite simple .You said the trinity is not taught in the bible and I replied

    Show me in the bible where God was once a man is taught or that he has many wives …… or that we will rule our own planets or men will be polygamists in C K

    Interestingly too maybe you could

    Show me in the book of Mormon where any of these things are taught ?

    The Book Of Mormon is very Trinitarian itself .It was inspired by the bible afterall .

    If your religion is true then I am only tearing myself down and it shouldn’t concern you …. I read nearly each day in the book of Mormon about the ‘Abominable Church ‘ who took away plain and precious things …. and you will go round saying we believe all churches have truth …( even the abominable one !)

    1 Nephi 13:28: Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

    Steffie

    I have no desire to prove the gospel isn’t true !

    Now if you had said to prove Joseph Smith was a conman and not really communicating with God … then I would say YES 🙂

    Comment by elder joseph — October 28, 2007 @ 11:37 pm |Reply

  48. Hi EJ –

    in your opinion – where did the the BoM come from?

    Comment by happyman4 — October 29, 2007 @ 9:48 pm |Reply

  49. happyman4

    My kind of question ! 🙂

    the book of mormon came from

    Ethan Smiths View Of The Hebrews :Pastor Ethan Smith wrote and published a book in 1823 called ” View of The Hebrews ” , it was about The American Indians being the descendants of Israelites who

    1 Came to America and split into two warring nations . One became a wandering idle hunting nation and the other a more civilised and sensible nation improving their knowledge of things .

    2 One half was industrious and proseprous and the others half became like savages and they had wars ! Many long and dismal wars were fought with each otherand over the years the savage idle ones eventually detroyed their civilised brethren .

    3 They had a book long time hidden preserved and having lost the knowledge of reading it they buried it with an Indian Chief .

    4 This book contained 4 yellow folded leafs and writing in Hebrew (bible quotations )

    5 The hidden book tells of an Urim and Thummim & Breast Plate for the Indian Archimagus ( High Priest) .He wears the breastplate made of a white conch shell with two holes in the middle of it through which he puts the ends of an otter skin strap and fastens a buckhorn whote button to the outside of each in imitation of the precious stones of the Urim and Thummim .

    6 Chapter 4 of this book pleads to the American nation to teach the gospel to these Indians and let them know they are descendants of the ancient Patriarch Abraham and restore them to favour and blessing of God !

    7 It quotes chapters of ISAIAH !

    and much more detail ….. It sounds just like the Book Of Mormon story and the Lamenite and Nephite civilisations !

    I read it all in LDS Church historian BH Roberts ‘s book ..

    there is alot of King James Bible 1611 with apocrypha

    The story Of Nephi and smoting Laban comes from the apocrypha – similar to Judith and Holoferness story , cutting of heads etc ..

    The many stories in the BofM are plageurised from the Bible and re written with new characters and situations ..

    Lots of 3 Nephi is directly copied from Matthew including verses where Joseph altered them in His Inspired bible translation leaving the 3 Nephi ones with ‘errors’ ? how can that be if they were taken from Gold Plates ?

    He got king benjamins camp style farewell discourse from Methodist preachers of his day etc

    He seems to have woven in characters of his day as he wrote/dictated the narratives ….

    Nephi’s fathers dream of the tree of life and spacious building was really Joseph Smiths fathers dream ….

    The list goes on and on ..

    I noticed lots of Bible passages manouvered here and there when i read it …

    All the animals and plants mentioned are from his own time and not linked archeologically with pre columbian civilisations .. The Bof M doesn’t mention animals and plants which were known to have existed in that time period..

    Its terrible in that respect … Talk of Chariots and steel warfare and Armour is nonsense .. Anachronisms they are called .

    He spotted a gap in the market ! Incredible …. even I had thought about many of the issues joseph Smith addressed in the BofM studying with the many different Christian Denominations and also I’ve met many of the characters just like Korihor and zeezrom in real life .

    i never had the idea of doing what he did though !

    Its obvious to me it was all from his head and imagination ..

    There is huge more detail on the above and much more similar problems ..if anyone wants to inspect some of my research and correct it if it can be corrected then please email me …

    The guy who runs the Moonies has claimed to have seen and communicated with Jesus . He appeared to him as a youth as well ! 15 years old !! lol

    http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/unification2.html

    Families will be together is already in place , we don’t need a middle man organisation for it who then sell back to us whats rightfully ours already .And worst still in the early days women would have to obey polygamy including young girls marrying old men to be in a nice place after death … Its absolutely outrageous . I commend William Law and the others who had dignity to challenge the powerfull controlling Lying Mormon Heirarchy …. and why Did Joseph want to marry her as well ?

    Ok I think I need to cool off 🙂

    And remember non of this is a reflection on all the good mormons on here .I love Mormons ! I really would have liked to be one myself .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 30, 2007 @ 12:07 am |Reply

  50. EL – I’m kind of tired – we just finished FHE and we had the full-time elders over – We all had a great time – I should them an old video I had of “Man’s Search for Happiness” not sure if you ever saw it – We first saw it in 1984 when my wife and took the discussions – if you never saw see if you can – We are all on a search for truth and happiness – I’ve found it as have many others – It’s important to keep focus on that –

    I really like your last sentence –“And remember non of this is a reflection on all the good Mormons on here. I love Mormons! I really would have liked to be one myself.”
    When I left the Church I took several people and myself that I really wished that the Church was true – I had wished with all my heart – I had read everything plus more of what you are quoting and had many of the same concerns – I was a member for about 20 years when I left – I had no intentions of ever coming back – My wife and children stayed in the church and were very active – and while I still attended with them – I went to my church to.
    But now I’m back because somehow the Lord (and my family) never gave up – So now I can honestly saw that despite what I’ve read (and you quoted) I do believe the Church is true –
    I was just reading something lately about how the View of the Hebrews could not have been used – I’ll have to find it –
    And yes – B H Roberts wrote a lot – but in all his writings he never lost his testimony of the BoM
    Things can get really intense – I’ll reply to some of this tomorrow or sometime this week – But for now I’ll say goodnight and sweet dreams to all – and God Bless –

    And thanks to SteffieLynn for starting this discussion

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 1:11 am |Reply

  51. Just read what I wrote – shows how tired I am – sorry for the mis-spellings and incorrect word – hopefully you’ll fill in the gaps:-)

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 1:17 am |Reply

  52. Happyman4
    Thanks for continuing the discussion! And especially for going back and forth with EJ so I don’t have to. 🙂 (not that I don’t want to, he just makes me research more then I have time for….) I’d rather read about it and let someone else more knowledgeable then I go round about with him 🙂 I’m just here to make sure he stays in line! 🙂

    You all are great and I enjoy reading what you write! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 30, 2007 @ 1:57 am |Reply

  53. I’d just like to chime in and say that this is an interesting discussion and I’ve enjoyed reading all 52 (yikes! 😀 ) comments.

    I also enjoy and appreciate the input coming from Steffielynn, Elder Joseph, fuffy and happyman4.

    EJ has his points and seems he has done a lot of study and investigation into this. Even his last post on comment 49 seems interesting enough…is there an electronic version of that book anywhere?

    Happyman4, I’m very intrigued by your story and I have read it somewhere else before, I don’t remember where but I look forward to hearing what you have to say and learning what I can from you.

    I think I’m on the same page as Steffie and fuffy… We’ve gotten our answers through sincere prayer and wanting to know just the TRUTH.

    As far as where I was in my life when asked these questions, I was doing pretty well off, I was morally sound…in my opinion there was no reason for change. I could have kept the status-quo.

    I was encouraged to pray about the new things the missionaries taught me and it took a few weeks but I feel when I was prepared for an answer, I received the answer from Heavenly Father.

    I’ve read my fair share of ‘anti,’ I know about the church’s history, I know some of it isn’t very good. Still, I had the desire for the truth.

    “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?” (Matthew 7:7-10)

    I asked for bread from my Heavenly Father. I prayed about it. Sincerely. Afterwards, I received my answer without a doubt. I was fed good. I was given the truth.

    I’ve written about it here, please read:

    http://blog.ldspad.com/2007/10/09/christianity-mormonism-god-and-jesus-christ-facts/

    Comment by ldspad — October 30, 2007 @ 5:48 am |Reply

  54. Thank you ldspad – I appreciate your comments and you are 100% right – I thought about this all night and what I would like to add is that unless your reading the scripture everyday and keep things on a spiritual note – the world has a tendency to slip in and try to persuade you that you’re wrong – that the church is wrong – I liked EJ’s comment about wanting to be a Mormon – but that will never happen if one keeps looking for reasons not to join – one has to do like you said – study and pray –

    Rather than getting information about the church from the anti-Mormon sites, one should focus on getting information from the church sources – places like BYU Studies or FARMS – listen to LDS conferences – and most of all study and read the scriptures.
    Most anything that you find from the anti sites can be answered by one of these sites –

    Going to a everyday church member and confronting them with information present from most of these anti sites is unfair to the everyday church member – most do not have a theology background or the recourses to debate this – and really we should not debate when we do not have all the facts and even then we should avoid debating as it only brings in contention – and we know that contention drives away the Spirit –

    I am amazed at the wealth of good information on the web by the church or church related sites – I personally love the BYU Devotional site – it has a link that you can search for a talk by a speaker or topic – many of the talks you can download – my ipod id now full of talks from some of the best – LeGrand Richard, Neal A Maxwell, Bruce R McConkie, and more, and all this is free – http://www.byub.org/devotionals/

    I’m only back in the Church for a little over a month now – I don’t want to be trying to defend her aside from bearing my testimony about it and maybe to relate what I’ve learned over time – I need to be focused on having the priesthood and temple blessings restore in a year – focus on study of the scriptures and focus on my family –

    Peace and grace to all –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 10:45 am |Reply

  55. ldppad and all –

    On View of the Hebrews – please look at this rather that any anti site –

    http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=247&table=review

    http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=44

    I plead with all – please never go to any of these anti-Mormon sites, no matter how strong you think/believe your testimony is – rather – when you hear of these things and you feel as though you need an answer – first go to the Lord in deep prayer – then to the Lord’s anointed and to places like FARMS – There you will find answers –

    I know from experience on what it can do to you and how it can drive away your testimony – and before you realize it, it’s gone –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 11:01 am |Reply

  56. happyman,

    What are you afraid of? If the LDS church is true, it will be true regardless of what site you visit.

    You are trying to censure the people here. Trying to take away their free agency. Your intent is good, but you are doing this nonetheless.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 31, 2007 @ 5:14 pm |Reply

  57. Why the pleading ? sounds like Jw’s telling their members to only read watchtowers etc ..

    I found that visiting FARMS and their answers is interesting because alot of the time they haven’t really answered much but just spoke in riddles about it …

    Its just as good a place as any Anti mormon sites if you actually read them and and not assume they have done credible research because of the length of some of the articles ..

    I found most of the problems on there at first ..

    MY favourite was Horses could be Tapirs ! I think it was on FAIRS ..

    That ceratinly changed things for me ..

    Its strange to hear that a testimony can be lost .Surely thats the same as saying I’ve realised I’ve been misled and lied to by the church and now I know its not what it claims to be afterall ?

    A good book or Tv Documentary I’m watching at the moment is called GUNS,GERMS & STEEL .It tells of the origin of farming and Industrialisation around the world …. and why some nations developed sooner than others and some not at all !

    A must for LDS ! lol

    Comment by elder joseph — October 31, 2007 @ 7:53 pm |Reply

  58. Great book EJ I read it some time ago. There are a ton of books all Mormons should read that are not anti – just educate themselves about the history of our world and the empirical evidence that without a doubt makes the book of Mormon – P of G , D&C clearly impossibilities.

    ‘I plead with all – please never go to any of these anti-Mormon sites, no matter how strong you think/believe your testimony is”

    That sounds very cultish to me, I am sure people that believe that the holocaust never happened, refuse to read information of fact as well, but only study and believe the propaganda they are told to read.

    They are correct when they teach that if you read your scriptures, study the gospel as taught by the church, and pray as you are told to pray and follow Happymans above advice your testimony will certainly grow and be stronger. Still doesn’t make it true. Emotions can be manipulated, despite what FARM’s tries to spin and twist the empirical evidence is there. FARMS is clearly for the person that just wants to believe and wants to see that there is an answer. It is funny how anti’s are always accused of spinning and using half truths, When I was a TBM and wanted some answers to strengthen my testimony but would take it one step further and would actually look up the reference source foot noted by their article and Hugh Nibleys especially. They clearly lied. What a disappointment when I was really looking for the evidence to strengthen my already strong testimony, I was a temple worker and in the Elders Quorum presidency at the time. I wanted to be able to provide the answers to strengthen others testimonies.

    Now as I have spent the last 5 or so years reading books like the one mentioned above, researching and reading books pertaining to the origins of the Bible and religion in general it is completely obvious why the Church discourages such reading and research. The Church is hardly taken seriously or rarely if ever mentioned by any actual biblical or historical scholars. The fact that it is Church doctrine that the first Man lived in Independence Missouri should be enough. Clearly not true! You might as well believe the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the it.

    Definition of Mormon faith = “Faith is when empirical evidence doesn’t matter”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 2:33 pm |Reply

  59. if you read enough anit-books you will believe that they are true – you push the spirit away until you can nolonger hear the soft voice –

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 4:30 pm |Reply

  60. How can someone lose the “spirit” just by reading a book? I believe that if you are reading, or watching something on TV that is, shall we say “sinful” , the Holy Spirit will be poking you in the ribs telling you to knock if off. I just don’t believe he will leave you completely. I know that LDS believe that only people who are baptized into the LDS church can have the Holy Spirit to be with them, and that if that person sins they loose the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, I know that’s just not true. If you have accepted the Jesus as your Savoir, and asked him into your heart he’s there. He loved us while we were still sinners, before we were saved. If he loved us “before” we were saved, his going to love us after we are saved. Even when we sin and do stupid stuff.

    Comment by MistyAnn — November 1, 2007 @ 5:04 pm |Reply

  61. happyman

    you keep going on about anti books … its an obsession..

    What anti books have you read .I haven’t got any anti books ….

    I just have books on the origin of the nations of the worlds and why they developed the way they did .Books on Archeology and geography …

    I have Rough Stone Rolling – Richard Bushman

    You can read in there about a violent Joseph Smith , who severely reacted violently to any differing views to his own or any rejections from women on his polygamous proposals .

    I have B H Roberts book about Archeological problems and plageurism in the BofM ..

    The other Is Grant Palmer’s ‘insiders view ‘ book sold at deseret and a lifelong member ..

    Simon Southertons DNA book … Former Bishop and Scientist .

    How is any of this anti ! maybe Anti deception yes .

    Just look at the archeology and historical development of Latin America .There is no such thing as Nephites or Lamenites .Their was no such thing as almighty battles on Cumorah with Swords, Chariots , Breastplates etc etc .. or cows , oxes , pigs , goats etc …. the list goes on ….

    If you watch the new church DVD The Testaments One Fold and one shepherd , you’ll see they agree with The worlds archeologists .There is not one Book Of Mormon Animal shown in the film .Not one BofM sword or Horse or chariot !

    They show a stone age weapon called a mahacutil . Wood with flint blades .

    They use Secular Archeology which you think is wrong ?

    The church leaders know the BofM is fiction otherwise they would have used the BofM for the archeological and historical details ..

    Even Cumorah is getting moved about .. It used to be in New York until Archeological reality came to the church ..

    If LDS Prophets have taught that Hill Cumorah New York is the same one as the BofM . Who on earth gives FARMS and FAIRS the ‘Authority’ to reject there own Prophets ?

    If Gorden Hinckley is a prophet , why doesn’t he use a Hat and stone and reveal the real location ?

    When my first missionary came back to visit me she wanted to go to a museum here in England .It puzzled me because you don’t believe in the History of America in its own museums.

    You speak about a soft voice ? But whose voice ? Is it a biblical voice of The Jesus Christ narrative or is it the Joseph Smith Voice which gave him access to money , property , women , business ventures , politics , boats, followers wives ,teenagers , power , authority , Kingship , leader , Bank owner ….

    If I hadn’t gone on an Anti Site . I’d still believe that Joseph used an Urim and Thummim , that he was a faithfull husband , that he was honest , that he was meek and gentle , that he was a lamb to the slaughter , and goodness knoes what else ….

    This is not the way to treat human beings for the sake of ‘the church’ .

    Its not right to mislead people this way .It destroys their lives now in many cases and later on when they realise they have been duped . RFM is full of them .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 5:06 pm |Reply

  62. There is alot of truth in what EJ writes. When I was a new member of the Church, I was taught that JS introduced polygamy but never participated. I was told that it was BY that actually initiated formal practice. I don’t think I was lied to, because I believe the people that taught me this believed it to be true.

    But.

    Someone was lied to, somewhere along the line or this false teaching would never have been taught in the first place. Just this past year I had a conversation with my wife (lifelong TBM) about JS and polygamy. She did not believe that he had polygamous wives. She grew up in California. I grew up in Virgina. EJ grew up in the UK. This is definitely not isolated teaching, nor is this the only instance of false doctrine being taught.

    Again, I don’t think the people teaching this stuff today are lying. My wife wasn’t lying. They have just been mis-taught.

    But when did the lying begin?
    Who initiated the lying?

    That is what I would like to know.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 1, 2007 @ 5:36 pm |Reply

  63. Mistyann

    Everyone can have the influence of the Holy Ghost. What we have is called the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is given through the laying on of hands.

    We believe you can have Him as a constant companion. BUT when we sin i.e., get angry, scream at our kids, gossip, lie, cheat, etc. he will leave. He does not stick around to watch us. You can feel this happen.

    So we try our best to keep Him around ALL the time to guide us.

    EJ

    Why do we keep on with all this? You believe Joseph was a bad guy, I (and Happyman) believe he was good, We keep going over the same stuff. We are not going to ever lean towards your ideals, and we keep having to defend our faith. I am happy, and it is because of the gospel! Shouldn’t you be happy for us? Are we hurting anyone bacause of our beliefs or are we making the world a better place????

    Bishop Rick, good questions! I know of some LDS folks who did not know J.S. was involved in Polygamy until recently. But there are some that did know. I knew before I joined the church.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 1, 2007 @ 5:40 pm |Reply

  64. I don’t read ANTI books I read J of D and conference talks you don’t have to go much further than that. Things that have nothing to do with Mormonism but about science and history also have the same result ..hmmm go figure

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 5:53 pm |Reply

  65. steffie

    you said “Are we hurting anyone bacause of our beliefs or are we making the world a better place???? ”

    look at the many angry ex mormons …. Look at all the organistaions that have evolved from Mormonism .

    Look on http://www.exmormon.org recovery board for all the hurted in Mormonism …

    Look at all the divorces and family problems when one believes fanatically and the other changes his her belief … maybe you could put it down to personal attributes of the people involved .

    The answer is YES you are hurting others by not telling them what they have really joined and by the missionaries pressurising everyone before they have had time to really think about things …

    My missionaries purposely don’t tell about the blacks ban , tithe , polygamy etc to investigators .they say its not there responsibility .

    They have mentioned my baptism that many times tonight that instead of cussing at them I loved them so much more and showed them more about the reality of the church ..:)

    Love is the way forwa

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 10:17 pm |Reply

  66. pressed a wrong key lol

    as i was saying love is the way forward .. They love bomb me so I love bomb them .. They say I am awsome , I say they are awsome ! lol

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 10:18 pm |Reply

  67. I have read things written by some exmormons, I have read their words and they seem hateful, not just towards mormons, just in general, they cuss and act foolish, how they were ever mormon in the first place is beyond me!

    EJ please tell your missionaries that I feel for them!!!!!!!! I wish them goodluck with YOU! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 1, 2007 @ 10:36 pm |Reply

  68. Steffie

    ” , how they were ever mormon in the first place is beyond me!”

    Remember don’t get too naive about Mormons or you’ll be taken advantage of ….

    I can understand how they were Mormons in the first place .Mormons are no different from anyone else generally decent in nature , many just act the part more convincingly as mormons !

    The missionaries will need more than luck .Im actually hoping to fast this week for an answer ? lol The mishies are joining in , poor kids they only just did a fast a few days ago ! they’ll starve to death at this rate !

    If it fails they will blame me and not the Polygamy and blacks issue ! 😦

    Members are always to blame for not enough converts ,blamed for not having blessings, blamed for not having a testimony etc

    Its never the church’s fault for not telling us the real truth of things or the church’s fault if someone is struggling from all the pressures put on them in callings , classes , firesides etc …

    Its never the church’s fault that they pressure the missionaries into baptising anything that moves . Then they blame the ward members for poor fellowshipping or home teaching ..

    the church is perfect ? but the members ??

    Its the worst slogan I ever heard ! lol

    The church is an imperfect organisation …

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 10:56 pm |Reply

  69. If you don’t believe, and you don’t want to, then why are you fasting? This sounds like you are being dishonest EJ

    Comment by steffielynn — November 1, 2007 @ 10:59 pm |Reply

  70. How am I being dishonest ? My missionaries are suggesting this … I always try things they suggest !

    they know I don’t believe ? what makes you say i don’t want to ?
    You are correct in saying that

    I don’t want to believe that taking other mens wives is from Jesus Christ !

    I don’t want to believe that marrying young girls and teens to old men for concieving is from Jesus Christ.

    I don’t want to believe that black skin is a mark or curse for being less valiant is from Jesus Christ.

    I don’t want to believe that SECRET polygamy and lying to the church members and public about it is from Jesus Christ .

    I don’t want to believe that destroying a printing press or shooting enemies is from Jesus Christ when God could perfectly defend Joseph if necessary .

    But you seem to do.

    Its called being open minded .If I believed it I wouldn’t need to fast about it . I told them at the beginning two years ago I’m happy to learn if they want me to .But obviousley they just want another number on the bogus membership roll .

    You are wanting me to fast only if I will accept its true .sounds like backwards logic ..

    Is this how everyone gets there answers . it sounds like they convinced themsleves rather than anything external prompting them .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 11:33 pm |Reply

  71. No EJ,
    what I am saying is that you should fast with true intent. Do you REALLY want to know if the church is true? Just because the Missionaries ask you to do something, doesn’t mean you have to do it. You can tell them you don’t believe and never will. Fasting is not something you do just to do it. You do it for a purpose.

    EJ
    If you are going to fast and you really want an answer, and you really want to be open minded and soften your heart then I want to fast with you. Tell me the day and time…..

    Comment by steffielynn — November 2, 2007 @ 12:36 am |Reply

  72. Steffie

    Thank you for offering to fast .

    I nearly cried when I read that part and as I write my eyes are a bit watery . I forget how sincere you really are .Its very humbling for me that you thought of it..

    It scares me a bit also because sincere people like yourself can be easily taken advantage of by people who claim to be in contact with God …..

    If Joseph Smith was alive now I know what he would have in mind for you 😦 and its wrong ..

    I don’t know how I can explain this to you . But if we were around in Brigham Youngs time and he as an old man of 65 revealed to you that you have to marry him and I know you wouldn’t want to just like the other girls didn’t , then I would want to help you escape from that and try reason with you that its not from God , and not to believe him …. Martha Brotherton fled that and came back home to England … I have great admiration for her .

    I can’t stand seeing others exploited and I couldn’t care less for God if that is his way .

    When I hear news of mindless gang killing and rape of women and in front of their screaming children then the whole concept of God as and external force who intervenes only works for me if I’m prepared to intervene myself .This is how I see God works , through the actions of others .But those actions have to be Christlike and not self serving .

    Brigham’s polygamy was for his own self serving glory .This is what women were to men in the early LDS faith , just creatures for their own purpose of creating a Royal descent . Scores of wives like Crowns upon their heads they referred to it as . ( Wilford Woodruff on his birthday celebrations ) . These women were denied a loving relationship of their own choice …. and thats very certain .

    Once you believe you are a prophet of God and know that others think it also then Power just goes to your head . there is a tract issued by the 12 so called Apostles in times past ,the arrogance is absoltely breathtaking

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/proclamationoftwelve.htm

    Do you really want to bring up your daughter in a church where she will learn that polygamy is ok ? Is it right to condition her mind that way , that she has to obey this Priesthood Authority ? Maybe I’m being dramatic and still living in the LDS past ?

    You can teach her good morals anyway …. What will she think when she confronts the history later on ? Will you tell her ?

    Now going back to the original topic of the church being True ?

    I already know that the Book Of Mormon is fiction without a shadow of a doubt …. how do I fit in the church is true with that ?

    Thats the problem ….. I can’t deny this truth and reality .I would be lying to myself and to God …..

    There is a great National Geographic DVD called Guns Germs and Steel .Here is the answer I’ve wondered about for all my life ..

    The creator of the research Jared Diamond spent 30 years answering one question from a friend in The New Guinea Islands .
    He asked “why you white men have so much cargo and us New Guineans so little ? ”

    What he meant by cargo was ‘material goods’ ..

    This is the question I had all my life myself .Why did the European West etc develop before the Africans etc ?Why The Egyptians came to build their empire ?
    I always knew in my heart from young that blacks were not any less clever or less intelligent or lesser human really than whites , yet i was surrounded by a racist enviroment ,I didn’t like it .

    When My Missionaries told me about Blacks being less valiant and God being a White Man , It was the most scariest part of the church for me , I was nearly physically sick .It went totally against what I felt inherintley as a youth … I would have given up on the church then but for my female friend still on her mission and writing to me .I didn’t want to let her down …. .. yet afterwards she let me down ( unbelievable ) .I then realised that mormons must in a fantasy world and say anything to keep someone interested in church.

    This is why I have been attending so long .To be good to others and not really for myself . I’ve never been able to really seriously believe since the blacks episode …..

    the polygamy has only confirmed my fears even more…..

    What an amazing answer I got from the Scientist soon to become Historian Jared Diamond …. a day and question that changed his life .

    I recommend you read the book or watch the DVD . Its changed my life much more than the Book Of Mormon …

    It answers why some civilisations developed and others didn’t .

    I’m now going to study more about The Spanish Conquest of The Inca’s …. it will help understand more about the plants and animals which were native to them and no mention of even one in the Book Of Mormon narratives …

    Please don’t fast for me .I would rather you ate as normal and looked after your health and well being ..

    If the church is true , then God will tell me it is …… and not wait for me to convince myself of it first ….

    look at Alma the rebel , and Zeezrom if I recall correctly , and i’m not even as bad as them hopefully!

    The BofM is most certainly not a real history of anything unfortunately …

    And stop being so good to us antis ! lol 🙂

    Comment by elder joseph — November 2, 2007 @ 5:07 pm |Reply


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