Mormons Rock

October 20, 2007

What do YOU believe?

I have a lot of people come to my blog who disagree with my beliefs.  Many times they come here and try to TELL me what I believe.  I feel this is strange, because I feel I am an expert on my own personal beliefs. 

So I am creating this post so that you can tell us what it is YOU believe.  You can write as much or as little as you want.  I ask that EVERYONE be respectful of others. 

I will start us off.

I believe the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. 

I believe the Gospel has been restored in it’s fulness to the earth. 

I believe that God still speaks to us through prophets. 

I believe that our families can be together forever. 

I believe that Jesus Christ is Gods literal Son. 

I believe He lived and He died for me, so that I may live. 

I believe we are saved by His atoning sacrifice.  By grace. 

I believe that once we are saved we must change our hearts and our lives. 

I believe we must live by His teachings, and do what He has commanded.

I believe in a  loving and kind Heavenly Father.  I believe He wants ALL His children to return to Him. 

I love my Father in Heaven, and I love His Son, my Savior Jesus Christ. I am grateful for the gospel and the change it has brought into my life.  I am grateful for the change it has brought to my family, and I hope and pray that all who seek Him will find Him.

I leave you with these things in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!  

Ok.   Now, tell me what you believe 🙂

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209 Comments »

  1. Steffie,

    you said

    “I believe the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. ”

    Do you agree with this D&C verse then , you didn’t quite say it in the same way ? Milk before Meat or difference of opinion ?

    D&C 1: 30
    30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have apower to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, THE ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, with which I, the Lord, am well epleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 6:45 pm |Reply

  2. EJ

    You have missed the point. Please tell me what YOU believe in. (and NOT what you don’t believe in).

    You can ask questions on a question and answer post. Which I will create for you, as well as the polygamy post.

    As much as we have gone back and forth here, I have NO idea what YOUR beliefs are.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 20, 2007 @ 6:51 pm |Reply

  3. Hi ! I’m not sure how I ended up on your blog, but here I am. I recently graduated from law school with my husband, where I met a few Mormon students, and without fail all the Mormon people we met left us with a really good impression. They just seemed really grounded in their faith, and generous and kind because of it.

    Anyway, I’m a Muslim in her mid-twenties, currently working in Cairo, Egypt since August, due to return to the States by Christmas. As for what I believe, here goes:

    1) I believe there is only One God.
    2) I believe He was never begotten, nor can He beget anyone, and there is nothing comparable to Him.
    3) I believe Mohammad (peace be upon him) is His Prophet, and the last one in the line of prophets which include Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, Elijah, and all the other Biblical prophets (peace be upon them all).
    4) I believe all prophets came with the same message – to worship the one God.
    5) I believe worship of God doesnt just include ritual worship, but rather every act we do is an act of worship – whether its cooking dinner for the family or studying – as long as its done with the intention to please Him.

    Anyway, there is more that I can say, but I just wanted to throw in a brief contribution. And also wanted to say that I’m glad I came to your blog to learn more about the Mormon faith. Take care!

    Comment by Muse — October 20, 2007 @ 9:03 pm |Reply

  4. Steffie ,

    Would you be allowed to say I believe the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints is true in fast and Testimony meeting ?

    I thought you had to say I KNOW the church of JC of LDS is true ………

    My beliefs are difficult to itemise as I don’t believe in a one true church until Jesus returns himself comes again to establish it with him at the helm and not a man who claims to have seen him …..

    I probably believe the same as you but without the LDS being a sole and only real authority …

    For me a prayer or blessing from you would be just as valid as one from the LDS Priesthood Authority …..

    You want to redeem the dead in the temple , but I believe its being done anyway by Jesus Christ …

    I prefer the original sin concept but we are accountable somehow for our mortal sins .The original sin explains our fallen nature . Mortal sin is of our own choosing …

    Pseudo Catholic/Evangelical belief with some JW-Mormon-Agnostic influence thrown in for good measure …..

    Maybe I can restore something myself ………. would you be my plural wife ? 🙂 …. Don’t blame me an Angel with a drawn sword made ask !

    Comment by Elder Joseph — October 20, 2007 @ 10:35 pm |Reply

  5. EJ wrote, “Would you be allowed to say I believe the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints is true in fast and Testimony meeting ?

    “I thought you had to say I KNOW the church of JC of LDS is true ………”

    The Lord has said that those who believe are more blessed than those who know. Expressing belief is always more powerful than expressing knowledge. Our F&T meetings would be more spiritually filled if people got up and said, “I believe in (fill in the blank)” instead of I know (fill in the blank.) The doctrine that you must get and have a testimony (actual knowledge of something) is not scriptural. All the scriptures constantly say is that we must believe. When the scriptures speak of testimony, it is speaking of the presence of the Holy Ghost, which is the spirit of prophecy and revelation and which is also known as the testimony of Jesus. The Holy Ghost does the testifying (to us) and we believe that testimony. So, yes, you’d be allowed to express belief in F&T meeting.

    As for my beliefs, I believe the same list of things that Steffie enumerated.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — October 20, 2007 @ 11:08 pm |Reply

  6. I would like to debate.

    Comment by Gman — October 21, 2007 @ 12:56 am |Reply

  7. Muse,

    I’m so glad you came to my blog too!!!!. I really have no clue as to what Muslims believe, so it is so nice for you do come here and inform me! (and others i’m sure).

    EJ, I think LDS Anarchist did a fabulous job of answering your question, so I don’t have to!

    EJ can you try to only state your belief? Can you just tell us what you believe about God, heaven, Jesus, and so on? Try to do it without including any questions and without any negative statements about the LDS church. I realize you do not think the church is true. So what is true to you? (i’m not trying to dictate your comments, I just want to get a clear understanding of what you believe, NOT what you don’t believe.) 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 21, 2007 @ 1:24 am |Reply

  8. Having spend my adult life in the LDS church I do know what they believe, I do know the doctrine. If you say you believe something different than what is taught, that’s a good thing. It shows that you are using the brain God gave you, and really thinking about things.

    I believe that as long as you are worshiping the Jesus of the Bible you are apart of the “body of Christ”, therefore part of HIS church. I don’t believe there is only one domination is the only true one.

    I believe that Jesus paid ,bled, and died on the cross for all of our sins.

    I believe there can be so called “prophets” on the earth day. These people, don’t contradict what Jesus said, making him a liar. They preach, what Jesus has said.

    I believe the Jesus is indeed God’s son, that he was begotten by the Holy Ghost as the Bible says.

    I believe that was must repent and ask Jesus to come into our hearts and to be Lord over our lives. When he comes he will give us a new heart.

    I believe that we are saved by God’s grace. That once we become saved, we are always saved.

    I believe that once we are saved, we will what to obey his commandments. This however does not save us, we can not earn our salvation, this is simply a result of our salvation.

    I don’t believe that we are automatically one of God’s children. We must be saved first, then we are adopted into his family.

    Comment by Misty — October 21, 2007 @ 1:04 pm |Reply

  9. Misty, thank you for your comment,

    As a former LDS, I am suprised that you think LDS can “earn” salvation. This is not what the LDS believe. We are saved by grace, once saved you must follow the commandments that were given to us. This is not a way to “earn” salvation., this is simply loving, respecting, and honoring our Father in Heaven. We WANT to do as he asks!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 22, 2007 @ 1:33 pm |Reply

  10. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true.

    I believe that there are wonderful people all over the world that will unfortunately miss the opportunity to learn about our church, but threw the teachings of our church, I know they will be given that opportunity in heaven and threw genealogy and temple work they can enjoy the blessings of heaven.

    I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost, the still small voice that reminds me of right and wrong, but we must be prepared to listen.

    I believe in our missionaries, that not all of them are called to serve abroad for 2 years of their life. Some of them offer a kind word or a helping hand or serve threw other means, like a few I’ve met here…answering questions and commenting about the church, whole-heartedly.

    Comment by cowgalutah — October 22, 2007 @ 6:40 pm |Reply

  11. Cowgalutah,

    I think you said it beautifully! Thank you for your comment!

    Steff

    Comment by steffielynn — October 22, 2007 @ 8:18 pm |Reply

  12. Ok, this is a real tough one for me. I am LDS, but have a totally different belief system. Please forgive me for throwing in a few “I don’t believes” in my list. It can’t be helped.

    I don’t believe in revealed religion in any form.

    I still believe in (more like cling to) a supreme power, but have no idea what that is…Deist if you will.

    I believe the Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran are all books written by men and of men.

    I believe they each contain degrees of wisdom that can better one’s life, but don’t think any of them to be an authority on God or the eternities…In all fairness, I have not read the Koran, but have read the Bible and BofM many many times.

    I don’t believe that a loving Heavenly Father would only provide the fullness of the Gospel to less than 1/100 of 1 percent of his children, only to clean things up in the hereafter.

    I don’t believe the world is only 6,000 years old.

    I believe humans invented religion to explain the unexplainable tens of thousands of years before biblical history even existed.

    I am not convinced that Jesus ever really existed since there is very little evidence supporting this, and very much to the contrary…this said, I think the principles assigned to Jesus are incredible and should be used to pattern ones life after.

    I don’t believe in a literal flood.

    I believe that humans should spend more time on the human experience and less time worrying about religion…life’s too short, and we don’t know what happens beyond that.

    I don’t believe the LDS church is true.

    I believe Steffie is true.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 23, 2007 @ 12:17 am |Reply

  13. Bishop Rick,

    It’s ok that you threw a couple I don’t believes in there. I’m just trying to get a basic understanding of everyone who comes here. Thank you for sharing your beliefs!!!!!!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 2:59 am |Reply

  14. Bishop Rick

    Why do you say you are LDS? Are you active? I am sure you have explained perviously so you can point me to that post if you would prefer.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 6:06 am |Reply

  15. Steffie,

    You can say that I believe in everything you just listed. Also, in what cowgalutah said. 🙂

    Also, I believe that we all believe at least in the same God whether we be: Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutheran, Mormon, etc…

    I believe that Heavenly Father is fair and just.

    That being said, there are a lot of people with the right intentions that only have a piece of the full gospel in their lives. And there are those who have missed out.

    It would seem unfair to miss out if they never received the truth. I am glad to know that people who have passed on not knowing the fullness of the gospel will have their fair chance to learn and accept it.

    Comment by ldspad — October 23, 2007 @ 6:26 am |Reply

  16. LDSpad

    It’s such a wonderful knowledge to have! I am so, grateful for such a wonderful and perfect plan!

    Thank you for your comment!

    Steff

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 10:58 am |Reply

  17. I believe that the LDS church is the true church – I believe that we have prophets that guide us – I believe that the church was restored through Joseph Smith. I believe that the restored church is very young – only 177 some years old – and that like the early Christians we are dealing with things – but this time, unlike with the early Christians – be have the continuation of the apostles – we have a prophet that really does guide us –

    I loved Elder Holland’s talk in conference about the difference –

    I truly believe that the BoM really happened – and it’s message is one of love from God to his children – that we need faith – repentance – baptism and the holy Spirit –

    I can say this after leaving the church – I had my named removed in 2004 – it took me 4 years to work up to that – so I really had lost faith in the LDS church for 7 years –

    Then I took my daughter to Provo to attend BYU and I had feelings, feelings so strong that I had to try and figure out why – I prayed – prayed a lot – for I had no intentions of returning to the LDS church – I had joined the RCC and was very active there –

    I started reading the BoM and then the PoGP – and to my surprise – I found that they were if fact true – – God had revealed to me in my heart that they were true –

    When I left – my wife and children stayed in the church – but I would attend with them every Sunday – I firmly believed that family need to worship together –

    I spoke to my bishop and then to the stake president – I was re-baptized and in one year I can request that the priesthood and temple blessing be restored – I so look forward to that time – to have my family back again for all eternity –

    So believe me – the Church is true – from one having left ( not for any transgression) and the Lord guided me back –

    Peace, and Grace and Love to all

    Comment by happyman4 — October 23, 2007 @ 2:31 pm |Reply

  18. Happyman4

    Elder Hollands talk was my favorite too! I will at some point try to post it on here!

    I am so happy for you that you have found your testimony! I’m sure being a member, and then leaving the church, has made you so much stronger! I can not even begin to tell you how amazing that is and how truely happy I am for you! Thank you SOOOOOO much for sharing your story with us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Steff 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 2:40 pm |Reply

  19. I believe that from what Bishop Rick said he believes, if he truly believes those things, he can be neither Christian, nor Mormon, nor Muslim.

    I believe Happyman4 never really “left” the church, and the amazing “feelings” brought him back (not sure how you come to the realization that something is definitively true from just a feeling, but leave it to the Mormons to do it).

    I believe LDSpad, Steffielynn and all other Mormons have been unfortunately and drastically misled, to believe that Mormonism is true.

    I believe when Christ returns, you’ll realize the error of your ways, unless you change course and leave the church.

    I believe Christ can always save you, but you have to leave the clutches of your LDS beliefs and turn to Him.

    I now believe you’ve been warned.

    Comment by Brad — October 23, 2007 @ 5:07 pm |Reply

  20. We’ve been warned????? Silly boy you do not know what you are talking about! Not only that, this is (if you read the post) a place for people to express THEIR beliefs, not what they believe about others beliefs.

    You cannot base an opinion on people you have never met before. You do not know them and what their lives are like and what they believe and what they have been through.

    Bishop Rick did not claim any religion, he was simply telling us what he believes in his heart to be true.

    LDSpad, Happyman4, Bishop Rick, and all other Mormons AND non mormons alike, they have become my friends and I will not have them disrespected! If you want to continue any conversations here you will remember this!

    YOU’VE been warned!

    Also, I’m not sure what kind of person you are but your smug comment has not been taken well. I do not know what you believe, because you have not told us, but you do not sound like a Christian to me!

    Steff

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 5:56 pm |Reply

  21. Happyman4

    I am curious as to why you went to the extent of having your name removed when you were still attending church etc. What is the RCC?

    Brad

    Even though I don’t believe in Mormonism it certainly doesn’t make any less sense that any other form of Christianity if you are saved I am quite certain they are as well.

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 23, 2007 @ 7:03 pm |Reply

  22. “We’ve been warned????? Silly boy you do not know what you are talking about! Not only that, this is (if you read the post) a place for people to express THEIR beliefs, not what they believe about others beliefs.” (Steffielynn)

    I believe I DID express my beliefs – your argument is invalid on its face. You say it’s not a place for people to express “what they BELIEVE about other’s beliefs”, yet it IS a “place for people to express their beliefs.” Which is it? My beliefs about what others believe ARE, in fact, my beliefs, are they not?

    “You cannot base an opinion on people you have never met before. You do not know them and what their lives are like and what they believe and what they have been through.” (Steffielynn)

    I’m only basing what I say on what the others have said they believe, right here on this very blog. You can most definitely form an opinion from what others say they believe.

    “Bishop Rick did not claim any religion, he was simply telling us what he believes in his heart to be true.” (Steffielynn)

    I didn’t say BR claimed a religion, I simply stated that I believed he couldn’t be the religions I listed, based on what he believes.

    “LDSpad, Happyman4, Bishop Rick, and all other Mormons AND non mormons alike, they have become my friends and I will not have them disrespected!” (Steffielynn)

    How have they been disrespected? B/c I disagree with them? B/c I made statements about what I believe, based on what they believe, and its different than what you believe?

    “Also, I’m not sure what kind of person you are but your smug comment has not been taken well. I do not know what you believe, because you have not told us, but you do not sound like a Christian to me!” (Steffielynn)

    What exactly does a Christian “sound” like? Anyway, but I have told you what I believe. You just took exception to it. I’ll state some add’l beliefs, however:

    I believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 1 God in 3 Persons (not just together in 1 common purpose).

    I believe there is one Heaven, equal in all levels, but that only few will find it.

    I believe in a literal hell, where all those who have not accepted the Jesus Christ of the Bible will reside and suffer for all eternity.

    I believe that after you die, there is nothing additional you can do, and nothing else anyone living can do, to gain salvation.

    I believe that we are fully saved if our faith is in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, apart from works, baptism or any other ordinance.

    I believe that the Bible is God’s sole written Word to us, that He has inspired no other writings upon which man should draw for his religious beliefs.

    That’s a doctrinal starter list, at least.

    Comment by Brad — October 23, 2007 @ 8:34 pm |Reply

  23. Brad, the last part of your comment is what this particular post is about. I said before I am not trying to dictate what people say, But on this post I am looking for people to tell us what they believe in, (and NOT what they believe others believe) which is what you did at the end of your last comment. Thank you.

    It is all too often others form opinions regarding LDS beliefs, and then they mix their own opinions as facts. This is quite frustrating to us LDS. It seems the only people allowed to express Mormon beliefs, are non mormons, i’m trying to get away from that.

    P.S.
    A Christian sounds, nice, loving, humble and kind. To be a Christian is to try to follow Christ’s example.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 23, 2007 @ 10:14 pm |Reply

  24. No – I really left – I wrote the letter and had my named removed from the church which cancelled out the priesthood and the temple ordinances – I was a high priest at the time – I left because I did not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet – that the Pearl of Great Price was made up – since they had the source and it didn’t match up – The LDS stands and falls on Joseph – either he was a prophet or he was not – I concluded that he was not – once that was settled I saw many of the teachings – such as the God-head verse the trinity – and other core doctrines as being something just made up –

    The RCC is the Roman Catholic Church – I was born a Catholic and my wife and I had converted to Mormonism in 1984 – before going back to the Catholic Church I attended the Methodist.

    Before going out to Utah with my daughter I was teaching Catholic bible study at the State prison every Tuesday night – I had no intention on returning to the LDS church – in fact when I went out with her I had my pray book and rosary to pray with –

    The reason that I continued to go to church with my family is two fold – First – I really think families should worship together – what the children see when they are young and even when they are older is that mom and dad went to church with us every Sunday – I would teach them all about the bible during our family time – Second – my wife and I had decided not to tell them that I left – one of the reason is that my wife was having a very difficult time – think about it – we were sealed in the temple and no hear I am leaving the church and having all that cancelled out – It was very hard on her – but we both loved God and Jesus Christ – so we found ways of dealing with it. Also I when I was young – around 12 my folks were divorced – well I was attending Catholic school at the time and I just knew that my mom and dad were excommunicated from the Catholic church – and at that time – it was pre-Vatican II – they were going to hell – now that is very hard for a kid to take – I didn’t want my children to go through that with me leaving the LDS church.

    The feelings I had walking around the campus of BYU hit me – I wish I could explain it better – I was just getting feelings – I really started praying – I knew that I could not ignore them – and about a month later – I realize that the LDS church was true –

    I had to interview with the Bishop and Stake president and they determined that I could be re-baptized – As I had not left the church with any transgressions – it was a doctrinal issue.

    I was re-baptized and now am a member again –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 23, 2007 @ 11:33 pm |Reply

  25. The reason I went to the extent to have my name removed is that I could not live a lie – I could not still have my name on the roles of the church when I did not believe it – to me that was hypocritical – and I could not do it – Now when I look back – I wish I had never done it and I would counsel anyone never to take such drastic steps –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 23, 2007 @ 11:44 pm |Reply

  26. You have a great discussion going on, Steffielynn. A few years ago the Relief Society in our ward asked all of us to write our personal testimonies, and then the presidency typed and bound them all in a book for each of us for Christmas. I’m going to “borrow” a few sentences from my own writing:’

    “I know that Christ lives and that He leads and guides us under the direction of our prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley. I believe that President Hinckley is indeed a prophet of God, the last in a long line of holy prophets in this dispensation. I further believe that Joseph Smith was a prohet, that he translated the book ‘out of the dust’ into the Book of Mormon, yet another testament of Jesus Christ….President Hinckley has reminded us that our entire strength rests upon the validity of the first vision. If it occurred, then it’s the ‘most important and wonderful work under the heavens.’ If it didn’t occur, then the work is a fraud. I’ve ponderted that simple concept many times and KNOW that the phenomenal growth of this increasingly global church is possible because of one reason: IT’S TRUE!”

    Brad, One of our Articles of Faith states, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may.” This is a gospel of peace and love, not contention and argumentativeness.

    Comment by marlajayne — October 23, 2007 @ 11:46 pm |Reply

  27. I am LDS, but my beliefs have changed drastically over the past two years. I do not believe many key assumptions that the LDS Church makes anymore. Here is what I do believe and since Bishop Rick got away with it, I list a few things that are hard for me to believe.

    I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior.
    I believe the Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings united in purpose.
    I believe priesthood is necessary to perform God’s ordinances.
    I believe God exists.
    I believe that the most important thing is that we follow Christ’s example.
    I have trouble believing in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other modern day prophets, eventhough many of them may be good people.

    Comment by Jay — October 24, 2007 @ 12:27 am |Reply

  28. CoventryRM,

    Yes I am active, complete with calling. Probably considered one of the more active members. Not only do I attend every week, but I attend most of the activities too. I guess I would be in the hypocrite category, but I don’t care. I choose to be with my family and my family attends the Mormon church.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 24, 2007 @ 12:42 am |Reply

  29. Bishop Rick – Keep attending with your family – that is critical to everything:-)

    Comment by happyman4 — October 24, 2007 @ 12:53 am |Reply

  30. Bishop Rick

    I can certainly understand where you are coming from and I would not venture to call you a hypocrite. You are doing what is in important to you and being pragmatic there is nothing hypocritical or wrong with that as long as you can be happy and not feel compromised to the extent of feeling resentment towards the ones you love

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 24, 2007 @ 4:33 am |Reply

  31. Oh my gosh Coventry RM I agree with you! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 24, 2007 @ 4:35 am |Reply

  32. I don’t know what on earth I believe anymore .

    I still attend LDS as an active participating investigator. I manage to fend of baptism attemts on me citing Brigham Young took two years . Now I’ve done two years I didn’t know what excuse I could use next ……. until conference that is where I learned Lorenzo Snow took several years !! lol

    The real reason is of course that I simply don’t trust/believe in anything Joseph Smith did or said .

    The sooner Jesus returns and tells us all whats what the better 🙂

    Comment by elder joseph — October 24, 2007 @ 10:45 am |Reply

  33. Happyman4,

    This is the issue many have with Mormonism, the fact that nothing more than “feelings” causes them to believe it’s true. You believed before that it wasn’t true – what was that based on? You mentioned that you didn’t believe Smith was a prophet, and that the texts were made up. You must have had some basis for those thoughts.

    How is it that the “feelings” you had later, overcame the basis for those earlier thoughts that the church wasn’t true? Have you TRULY resolved that in your mind, enough to explain why you believe the church is now true?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 12:42 pm |Reply

  34. Marlajayne,

    I’m not saying you don’t have the right or ability to worship as you see fit. Have I tried to take that away from you anywhere?

    What I’m saying is that I call into question your BASIS for believing. Your excerpt from Hinckley is correct – EVERYTHING in Mormonism rests upon the validity of what Smith said he saw. If it is false, then Mormonism is a fraud. What always follows after that, is where people don’t understand Mormonism. The Mormon will always after that say that they “know” that Mormonism is true, but there is never a concrete basis for that knowledge.

    What is your basis? Is it a “feeling”, such as Happyman got, or is their actual evidence to back up everything Smith said, as there is for evangelical Christianity?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 12:47 pm |Reply

  35. But Jay, based on your last belief, even according to Hinckley, if you don’t believe Smith was a prophet, Mormonism crumbles. How, then, do you still hold to Mormonism, if you doubt Smith and the prophets?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 12:48 pm |Reply

  36. EJ, if you don’t believe or trust in anything Smith did or said, then even according to the LDS president Hinckley, if that’s true, Mormonism is a fraud.

    If you don’t believe it, why do you still attend the church? Aren’t you attending a church that you don’t believe to be true?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 12:50 pm |Reply

  37. Brad,

    If there was proof and you were presented that proof would you then believe?

    Most of us here have researched the Book of Mormon, and the Bible. We have found that there is proof, and we have found that for both books this proof can be “proven” false. So we are left with, which “proof” do we believe. We then have to look into ourselves, we need to ask of God. And this is were we get our answers, this is were we find OUR proof.

    Faith is believing in what you cannot see, I cannot see Christ, I can not see God, But I can certainly FEEL them. I’m sorry if you cannot.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 24, 2007 @ 2:46 pm |Reply

  38. Brad,

    I would have to say that Mormons use the exact same methodology that you use. They just come to a different conclusion. Doesn’t make either of you right or wrong.

    Just like Mormons, your whole belief system is based on faith so I really don’t see how your methodology is any better/worse.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 24, 2007 @ 3:24 pm |Reply

  39. But Steffie, you don’t give any details. What is this “proof” that is so easily refutable for Christianity? What is it for Mormonism?

    At the end of the day, what you’re doing is throwing proof out the door, and relying on your feelings. That’s not what the Bible tells us to do, is it? What about the Bereans?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 4:27 pm |Reply

  40. B Rick, what methodology is this you speak of, exactly? What you say makes me think you don’t “believe” in absolute truth, but rather relative truth. Is that the case?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 4:29 pm |Reply

  41. Brad, can you prove that Christ is God’s son? Can you give me proof that He was raised form the dead and assended into Heaven? Can you prove that God exists and that He created this world?

    No one can hand you proof of these things. You either believe and have faith, or you don’t.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 24, 2007 @ 4:31 pm |Reply

  42. Brad, I think you might have misunderstood my purpose for including the Article of Faith; it was to intended to reinforce the idea that YOU are free to believe whatever and whomever you choose. I already know that I am. No one is forcing any doctrine down your throat and insisting that you swallow it. It’s totally your choice, so I’m wondering why you’re so argumentative about it all. What does it matter what others believe as long as it brings them peace and direction in life?

    Comment by marlajayne — October 24, 2007 @ 6:29 pm |Reply

  43. Wow you really have your hands full with this post. You girls make a great team!

    FYI I just wanted to let you know I’ve tagged you for a fun little recipe exchange.

    Comment by cowgalutah — October 24, 2007 @ 6:48 pm |Reply

  44. “Brad, can you prove that Christ is God’s son? Can you give me proof that He was raised form the dead and assended into Heaven? Can you prove that God exists and that He created this world?

    No one can hand you proof of these things. You either believe and have faith, or you don’t.” (Steffielynn)

    I didn’t say ALL things could be proven; I referenced the fact that you said there was easily refutable items in Christianity. Just b/c you can’t prove something, doesn’t by definition make it refuted, it actually makes it irrefutable, b/c it CAN’T be refuted.

    However, if one is to follow a simple logic form, you can only logically arrive at the conclusion that Christ is God’s son, that He was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven, and that God does exist and did create the world. Since we’re big on books around here, try “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”, by Norm Geisler. Excellent book.

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 7:08 pm |Reply

  45. “Brad, I think you might have misunderstood my purpose for including the Article of Faith; it was to intended to reinforce the idea that YOU are free to believe whatever and whomever you choose. I already know that I am. No one is forcing any doctrine down your throat and insisting that you swallow it. It’s totally your choice, so I’m wondering why you’re so argumentative about it all. What does it matter what others believe as long as it brings them peace and direction in life?” (Marlajayne)

    I never said anyone is forcing anything down my throat. But thank you for reinforcing that.

    The last sentence of your post is very troubling, however, for it is the cornerstone of relativism – “anything goes, if it makes them happy.” Do you TRULY believe that?

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 7:10 pm |Reply

  46. Brad,

    Do you think the earth is 6,000 years old?
    Do you think Adam and Eve were the first humans?
    Do you think there really was a global flood?
    Do you think that a descendant of Noah founded Egypt?
    Do you think God was worried that humans would build a tower so tall it would reach him, so he confounded their language to prevent it?
    Do you think the book of Revelations was the last book written in the Bible so nothing should be added to the Bible? (i.e. BofM)
    Do you think that 666 is the sign of the devil?

    Just a small sampling of Christian beliefs that have been refuted.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 24, 2007 @ 7:44 pm |Reply

  47. Sorry Steffie,

    I know this post is supposed to be about what we believe, but I couldn’t resist.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 24, 2007 @ 7:47 pm |Reply

  48. “Do you think the earth is 6,000 years old?”

    I’m not sure as to the exact age (I studied this once, but it’s been a while), but I know it is less than 10,000 years. Certainly not the millions as is believed by scientists.

    “Do you think Adam and Eve were the first humans?”

    Yes, I believe that, according to the Bible.

    “Do you think there really was a global flood?”

    Yes, I believe that, according to the Bible.

    “Do you think that a descendant of Noah founded Egypt?”

    Have no idea, never been asked that before.

    “Do you think God was worried that humans would build a tower so tall it would reach him, so he confounded their language to prevent it?”

    I don’t think God “worried” about it, but I do believe the Tower of Babel is real, and the languages were confounded, yes.

    “Do you think the book of Revelations was the last book written in the Bible so nothing should be added to the Bible? (i.e. BofM)”

    I believe Revelation (there’s no “s” on the end, by the way; I figured with all your Biblical knowledge, you would know that) is the last book in the Bible. Depending on your view of Revelation (i.e. preterist, futurist, etc…), when you think Revelation was written will vary. Preterists place it just before 70 AD, while futurists place it around 90-95 AD. Most scholars tend to lean towards the latter. I believe nothing else should be included in the Bible, and that God has not revealed anything else to us that we need to know, including the BOM.

    “Do you think that 666 is the sign of the devil?”

    There is no way to be sure. Revelation clearly says “this calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.” Rev. 13:18 What does this mean? Nobody knows for sure, other than God. Could it be? Perhaps. Can you say yes (or no) for sure? I don’t see how.

    “Just a small sampling of Christian beliefs that have been refuted.”

    Tell me, where exactly have these been refuted (especially the ones which would be impossible to know), and what is the evidence for refutation? I’d be real curious to know, though I think I already know where you’re going, but I’ll wait to comment until I know for sure.

    Comment by Brad — October 24, 2007 @ 8:56 pm |Reply

  49. Ah, Brad, It seems that you’ve misunderstood my meaning again. I didn’t say that I believed “anything goes, if it makes them happy.” The world would be quite chaotic if that were the case. My implication was that people should be allowed to worship the Almighty “according to the dictates of their own conscience.” You want to be a Methodist? Fine, go ahead. Or a Catholic or Jew or Muslim? That’s okay with me too.

    Just so you’ll know, a few years ago I read a book by Marianne Williamson in which she realized that one day she realized that while she was winning all the debates and arguments, she didn’t feel so great about it for very long. It felt gratifying at first, but after a few minutes, there was sort of a hollow feeling. She then asked herself, “Do I want to be right, or do I want to feel peace?” She opted for peace. At the time, I wanted both (to be right and to feel peace), but sometimes that’s not possible, so I’m with Marianne. Go ahead. Be right. I feel peace. (especially since I know I’m right anyway…teehee).

    .

    Comment by marlajayne — October 24, 2007 @ 9:07 pm |Reply

  50. Brad

    Yes I am attending a church I don’t believe to be true ( in the sense that it is the only true church etc )..

    Mormons are still believers , its just that they have those strange characters thrown in Like Joseph Smith , BrighamYoung etc and I worry they might be making a gross error in believing God is a polygamist .This is the worst aspect of it for me …. and I’m a little uncomfortable with the only true church on the face of the earth concept .

    I think Mormonism has been a good experience for me and the changes I made too from my perspective as an ‘investigator’ .Had I joined or been brought up in it and then to feel how I do about it now could have been devastating psychologically …

    I believe Jay is doing a sincere and thorough investigation of the Mormon church and I look forward to his findings along the way…..

    I wish I had a ‘certain truth’ alternative for ex mormons and a firm belief of my own .

    Steffie

    you challenged Brad quote ” Can you prove that God exists and that He created this world? ”

    I understand that Mormons don’t believe God created anything , but just organised what was already there ( ie matter , intelligences ) ….

    Is this your belief too ?

    I’m even starting to think that I’ve been nuts all my life for believing in a literal Adam and Eve ! lol

    Comment by elder joseph — October 24, 2007 @ 9:09 pm |Reply

  51. Brad
    You answered my question with….

    “However, if one is to follow a simple logic form, you can only logically arrive at the conclusion that Christ is God’s son, that He was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven, and that God does exist and did create the world.”

    I agree!!!!!!!! and I use this same logic to arrive at the conclusion that God loves ALL His children, and that He sent His Son Jesus Christ to the Americas to teach them as well.

    And I use that same logic to come to the conclusion that the original church that Christ established fell away and it needed to be restored, so God called a prophet, (as He always does) and He gave him a record of these people who witnessed Christ.

    Again this same logic is used to come to the conclusion that God loves us so much that He continues to speak to us through His prophets, so that we may be guided and directed!!!!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 24, 2007 @ 10:58 pm |Reply

  52. “Ah, Brad, It seems that you’ve misunderstood my meaning again. I didn’t say that I believed “anything goes, if it makes them happy.” The world would be quite chaotic if that were the case. My implication was that people should be allowed to worship the Almighty “according to the dictates of their own conscience.” You want to be a Methodist? Fine, go ahead. Or a Catholic or Jew or Muslim? That’s okay with me too.” (Marlajayne)

    I didn’t misunderstand it at all. With respect to religous beliefs, you DID essentially say “anything goes, if it makes them happy.” If a person is at religious peace, then it’s OK for them, right? What about the Muslims who kill in the name of religion, b/c the only sure way for a Muslim to know they go to heaven is to be martyred for the sake of Allah? Is that OK, when they’re taking not only their life, but other innocent lives, as well? I guess if you believe the Mormon way about hell, it isn’t too big of a problem, since everyone will eventually come around anyway, right?

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 12:51 pm |Reply

  53. EJ,

    You truly have doubts, and truly are seeking. If you have such doubts that the Mormon church is the only “true church”, doubts about some of their leaders’ practices, I just don’t understand what it is that’s keeping you there? Their beliefs, whether you realize it or not, ARE drastically different than evangelical Christianity, despite the church’s attempts to say otherwise.

    I pray that you will continue to search, and look outside the Mormon church for your fulfillment and happiness.

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 12:53 pm |Reply

  54. Steffielynn,

    But that logic pattern falls away, b/c all the evidence and support that is there for the first logic pattern I described, SIMPLY ISN’T THERE for the Mormon logic pattern. It just isn’t. Look around you, put aside all the “anti” stuff your church will spin at you for a moment, and examine the evidence and say “Does this even make sense, when none of the places mentioned in the BOM have been found, the people groups it talks about have no historical record, the dating of artifacts in the texts don’t match what we know to exist, the language that Smith said he translated doesn’t even exist, etc…”?

    When you look at it objectively, Steffielynn, you can’t come to a “yes” answer honestly. The evidence just isn’t there. To believe otherwise, is to believe in a hoax.

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 12:57 pm |Reply

  55. You are looking way too deep into her comment, she is basically saying, be what ever you want, but please allow her/us to be what we want. That has zero to do with people killing each other in the name of God, and you know that. She is asking you nicely to be nice and be respectful of the LDS beliefs. (which you are not when you make comments like this!)

    What she said was,

    “What does it matter what others believe as long as it brings them peace and direction in life?”

    She did NOT say “anything goes”!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 25, 2007 @ 1:03 pm |Reply

  56. My answer is YES, honestly, and yes again, it does make sense. I believe that Christ would logically want everyone to know of Him and be saved. It most certainly makes sense!

    I find it interesting that you can use an argument to prove YOUR point, and when the SAME argument is used to prove mine you end up shooting down your own original argument!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 25, 2007 @ 1:11 pm |Reply

  57. Brad – who are you? What is your religious faith that makes you so mean – are you a Christian? if so – you are a very poor example of one – or do you get a thrill out of hurting people –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 1:25 pm |Reply

  58. I don’t think you’re looking deep enough into her comment. I’m not saying everyone doesn’t have a choice – they do. I’m just saying to re-examine your choice.

    Look at the comment again: “What does it matter what others believe as long as it brings them peace and direction in life?”

    To a Muslim, for example, martyrdom DOES bring great peace, b/c it is only through that that they can be SURE that they will go to “heaven”, so for them it may be death, but it is reassuring. Let’s plug her quote into this scenario, then: “What does it matter if Muslims want to kill themselves or other innocent people, as long as it brings peace to them”?

    Do you see how her statement can be taken, when logically extended? I’m not saying she MEANT that by her statement – I don’t think she did, nor do I think that she even thought about it in that way. But you can’t deny that it can be taken that way, when applied to specific situations. That’s why I say be careful what you say as an absolute, unless you’re prepared to back it up!

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 4:02 pm |Reply

  59. “Does this even make sense, when none of the places mentioned in the BOM have been found, the people groups it talks about have no historical record, the dating of artifacts in the texts don’t match what we know to exist, the language that Smith said he translated doesn’t even exist, etc…”?

    And your answer to this is “yes”, correct?

    Wow.

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 4:04 pm |Reply

  60. “Brad – who are you? What is your religious faith that makes you so mean – are you a Christian? if so – you are a very poor example of one – or do you get a thrill out of hurting people -” (Happyman)

    I’m not mean, happyman, not in the least. You’re just being confronted by someone who knows that what you’re believing in is not true, and is telling you as such. There’s no thrill – if I didn’t care about you, why would I bother? We’re called in the Bible to evangelize the world – I believe that the Mormons are not saved, you believe they are. I’m telling you so.

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 4:06 pm |Reply

  61. hello Brad –

    I believe with all my heart that my Church is true and that Joseph was a prophet of God –

    I believe that we need to follow the 2 great commandment – Love of God and Love of neighbor –

    I beleive that the only ones going to “hell” outer darkness are those LDS who “know” the truth – but deny it –

    We will all be judge according to our knowledge – what is in our hearts – you will be surprised how many Buddist and hindus make it one one kingdoms of God –

    We all all called to teach the Word of God – in a loving manner – when we are to teach – we are to present the Gosple message – and let the Holy Spirit convert – we should not start out – or end up – telling people they are wrong and that they are not saved – I don’t remember reading that anywhere –

    Peace and Grace –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 5:05 pm |Reply

  62. Happyman,

    You have a misconception of hell and who will be there. You have a misconception of heaven and who will eventually be there.

    There’s no Biblical basis for your beliefs. Have you looked into what the Biblical basis for your beliefs are?

    Comment by Brad — October 25, 2007 @ 5:47 pm |Reply

  63. Hi Brad –

    I’m so very thankful that I have more that the Bible 🙂 How sad it must be to think that our Heavenly Father just left us here all alone – I’m so thankful for the prophet GRH – who holds the keys –

    Someday you’ll learn about it – when your heart softens and you are ready – there will be a mormon there to teach and instruct you – with love, compassion and understanding..

    Peace –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 6:17 pm |Reply

  64. happyman4-

    So I guess according to you, even Hitler will have a higher degree of glory than me?! Thank you for reminding me why I shouldn’t get to close to Mormons. I think is sad how some of them look down their noses at someone who left the church, and they condemn them to the Mormon hell. It really doesn’t matter to these LDS if that person became an atheist, or went to a different church. It’s all the same to them
    Is is one more reason I believe the LDS church is wrong. I’m grateful for the knowledge that I received from God’s word. God isn’t going to be looking at what church you attended or rejected, he wants to know if you’ve accepted his Son. That is what is important.

    Comment by Misty — October 25, 2007 @ 6:26 pm |Reply

  65. No that is not what I’m saying – I believe that you will gain one of the 3 kingdoms –
    My words were that only LDS – those that know that the LDS church is true – and deny it will go into outer darkness –

    No – my religion believe that Christ died for ALL – not some –

    Mormons do not look down on people that left the church – I don’t know where you got that from – certianly not me –

    If someone is LDS and leaves because the no longer believe that the church is true – they will not go to hell – no one on earth can judge what is in there heart –

    But if someone knows in thier heart that the LDS Church is true and then denies it – well, that is a differant story – they had chosen for them selves.

    big differance here – you say that I am going to hell because I am a mormon – with what I can gather from your belief – you are either save or not – if not you go to hell –

    so using your logic – I should be offended and never want to get close to a christian… Come on – that seems so silly –

    You really need to get come Love in your life and study the scriptures – The Gospel of Christ is all about LOVE – not hate –

    I will pray for you –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 6:42 pm |Reply

  66. I’m sorry Brad – I really do not want to debate you – I accept that you are who you are – Jesus loves you as much as He love me – I wil no longer debate you in this manner – I will answer any reasonable questions – but not this tic for a tac –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 6:47 pm |Reply

  67. handyman4-
    When you said “I believe that the only ones going to “hell” outer darkness are those LDS who “know” the truth – but deny it – ”

    I heard- The people who are LDS and leave the LDS church are going to go to the “outer darkness”.

    Did I miss understand what you were trying to say? If I did, I apologize. I’m a former member of the LDS church.

    My experience has been that some, notice I said SOME, LDS do look down on people who leave the LDS church, it’s almost like they take it personally.

    I can’t say that because you are LDS you are going to hell, that’s not for me to say. Like I said before God wants to know if you accepted his Son,in this life, not what church had your name on it’s members list.

    I do have Christian love. Please don’t try use you “priesthood authority” on me. I Jesus is my only authority.

    Comment by Misty — October 25, 2007 @ 7:20 pm |Reply

  68. Yes Misty –

    You did misunderstand me – that if someone leaves the church – and they know in thier heart – mind and whatever – that the LDS church is the true church and still choose to leave – then yes – it’s outer darkness – You really have to work at going there –

    God judges – He knows what in the heart – that is very important –

    but if you leave (as I did) firmly believe that the church is not true that it is a false church – then I would have to say no –

    I actually thought I was responding to Brad when I read your post – my eyes were too fast – so my response about going to hell was meant for Brad when he said that mormons weren’t save –

    I’m VERY SORRY for the confusion –

    I believe that you do have Christian Love – Once again – sorry if I uspet you in any way –

    I have direct experience and would agree that there were some – maybe 1 or 2 that were rude to me when I left – but most just treated me the same –

    Sorry –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 25, 2007 @ 9:54 pm |Reply

  69. Steffie says that it makes sense that Jesus Visited The Americas because God loves all his children ?

    Did Jesus visit Russia and Alaska then on that same logic .

    The Apostles were commissioned to preach the Gospel and as far as I can see the only reason America has Christian Based religions is because it came with the settlers after Columbus . The native Indians and Latin American people had no concept of Jesus Christ from what I can gather ..

    this is part of the probelm with Mormoism for me .The evidence shows no basis for any of Joseph Smiths narratives in the BofM /it seems a fraud from the outset and has grown into a major religion .I don’t believe it will continue as storm clouds are gathering .

    Brad

    I do enjoy my association with Mormons .Its more of a social thing .I don’t believe they have any godly/ priesthood power anymore than any other person …

    I’m not unhappy in life or looking for anything except what is true ? and alot of that encompasses History and Archeology …

    I think that the true church will come when jesus christ returns , so meanwhile let us all do good and more good .All Humans are naturally selfish to a certain degree .I’ve learnt to be less selfish associating with the Mormons and it probably would have happened if I attended my local evangelical church also .

    The common theme is Jesus Christ in both …… although I have a dislike for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young so its very unlikely I will be a Mormon and especially as I don’t want to be associated with those two self styled prophets …. I’m scared I’ll be punished by God for believing them .

    Happyman 4 I think that outer darkness teaching scares the more weaker and vulnerable ones into staying in the church . Its the same with the threat of burning for those who don’t pay tithe !

    If I believed in Mormonism then I would join simple as that …. I keep reminding my missionaries of that fact …

    Comment by elder joseph — October 25, 2007 @ 10:23 pm |Reply

  70. I just got home and I have not read through all the comments, (so I’m sure I will have more to say then this) but…..

    EJ

    YES I do think that Christ may have, and probably did go, to different places, and I do think it is possible that more scripture may be found one day. (these are my personal feelings/beliefs!)

    Also, Brad

    You speak of Muslims as if they are all terrorists and we know this is not true, from what I understand it is the 2nd largest religion in the world (i may be wrong) with something like a billion members (i may be wrong again) All these muslims do not go around strapping bombs to their chests and killing innocent people. So your points don’t fly. People who do that claim to do it in the name of Allah, or God and really, as we all know, they are irrational, awful, horrible, evil men.

    And one last thing, Brad….

    You say you care about mormons and you are here to “save” us. You need to know that all you have done is ruffle feathers and insult us. I would not join a group of people who act judgemental and superior and at the same time Claim to be Christian. The only thing you have done so far is strengthen my already strong testimony! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 25, 2007 @ 10:59 pm |Reply

  71. No problem handyman. 🙂

    Comment by Misty — October 26, 2007 @ 1:03 am |Reply

  72. Brad, What you’ve essentially done is infer things that I did not say and then accuse me of saying them, even to the point of urging others to look deeper into my comments. (58) How can anyone have a discussion with someone who so deliberately twists others’ ideas? If you feel inclined, reread Steffielynn’s clearly stated comments in 55.

    One of the many things we believe is that Christ stated that the second greatest commandment was to love our neighbors as we love our own selves. In my mind, everyone is my neighbor although he or she might not live next door, be the same race, have the same income, speak the same language, or attend the same church. Also, it implies that I will not bash, berate, or criticize my neighbor or his religious beliefs. Mormons don’t do this to others because we are striving to follow the Master, and yet others do it to us.

    Comment by marlajayne — October 26, 2007 @ 1:59 am |Reply

  73. marlajayne

    Have you ever read what the early church leaders ( LDS Prophets and Apostles) taught and said about other Christian religions ?

    You should read Journal Of Discourses .

    It will help you understand why you have opposition .

    The whole foundation Of Mormonism is to believe everyone else is wrong . Your own scripture declares

    “This is the only true church on the face of the earth ”

    Steffie

    Maybe I will find and translate some Gold Plates telling of the ancient inhabitants in Russia and Christs dealings with them . In return I get a house built forn me , don’t have to work , have all me needs met by followers , Take many young wives as and when necessary and followers wives too .

    This is the reality of Joseph Smith and I know it concerns you also ….

    Why not have Christianity without Joseph Smith and his teachings and instead focus on Jesus Christ of the bible ?

    I think that will come eventually for the mormon church .The RLDS have already gone that way now ….

    Its the right thing to do .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 26, 2007 @ 11:55 am |Reply

  74. EJ

    By all means go dig!

    Also I do not think people were building his house while Joseph was sitting around sipping lemonade! You make him out to be such a horrible person, and yet you REALLY don’t know. If you had personally met him and felt this way I might give your comment a deeper look. But that is not the case. You read about it and then form your opinion. That doesn’t work for me.

    If I worshipped Joseph Smith I might be disturbed, but as you know I don’t. And the thing you seem to forget is that I have a confirmation from God. I know he was a prophet, so any opinion you may have of him goes right out the window!

    Ej you are just spinning your wheels with me! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 26, 2007 @ 12:10 pm |Reply

  75. EJ says -Why not have Christianity without Joseph Smith and his teachings and instead focus on Jesus Christ of the bible ?
    It could also be asked why do we need a Peter and Paul 🙂 – Joseph Smith is doing the same as they did – explaining the application of what the savior taught –
    EJ also said – Maybe I will find and translate some Gold Plates telling of the ancient inhabitants in Russia and Christs dealings with them . In return I get a house built forn me , don’t have to work , have all me needs met by followers , Take many young wives as and when necessary and followers wives too .
    We know that Christ visited more people than just the Nephites – so maybe there are plates there – :-)I really don’t think that Joseph had it so easy – he was imprisoned how many times? Beaten many times – broke most of the time… It seems everyone wants to point out his warts (which we all have) but want about his mission and all the good that he did – He was the Lord’s prophet –
    Now the JoD – is a huge multivolume piece of work – I’m sure that you (and I ) have not read everything in it – but most of what goes around are negative things – so maybe 10% of the whole set? The JoD is not consider scripture by the LDS church –
    The RLDS dwindled because they no longer held the authority and did not acknowledge the power of the BoM – they wanted to conform to what the world wanted from a religion – so they started to deny that Joseph had a vision – but that he had an experience…
    I like you EJ – you bring up very good point –
    Peace

    Comment by happyman4 — October 26, 2007 @ 12:17 pm |Reply

  76. happyman,

    Why limit this to Peter and Paul? Why not throw Mary in as well?

    Why do we need Peter, Paul and Mary?
    Because we like folk music.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 26, 2007 @ 2:35 pm |Reply

  77. Bishop Rick, Your a dork! 🙂

    Seriously though happyman is correct! We needed Joseph so that the gospel could be restored, and God chose him. If you are not happy with His decision, you need to take that up with Him!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 26, 2007 @ 3:21 pm |Reply

  78. EJ, While you’re having that house built and marrying all those wives, keep in mind that your life will be cut short in a brutal manner.

    Happyman’s comments about concentrating on a person’s warts is excellent. I’m thinking right now about King David and his hundreds of wives and concubines, and yet wasn’t he referred to as “beloved?” Even Jacob had several wives, and ugh, I just thought of Judah who had sex with his daughter-in-law (not knowing who she was…but still!!). Then there was Lot with his daughters. No, neither JS nor BY were perfect, but they performed a phenomenal “work” which is continuing to spread across the globe.

    Comment by marlajayne — October 26, 2007 @ 4:22 pm |Reply

  79. MarlaJayne

    It seems to me from what I am reading that as long as I am a prophet or at least people think I am then I am justified in anything I want simply by referring to the old testament ..,, and I could even look good by comparison.

    Why not compare with Jesus christ and his Reformed and Updated teachings . He revoked or removed alot of what the Israelites believed and practiced and the Apostles went furhther still dismantling the Old Testament rules , so why bring them back to compare or justify Joseph Smith .

    This is a big green light for those who can and want to exploit others through religion …

    You say that Joseph Smiths and Brigham Youngs works is spreading across the globe , so are JW’s , and scientology many religious and Cults also ….

    The big reason for the LDS church spreading so fast is that they have kept the real history hidden . Now that the Internet is here that will be impossible for them to do anymore .

    happyman4

    What good did Joseph Smith do in the end ? He just brought about tribulation ,death and persecution to his followers .He introduced futher division to Christianity . He brought polygamy back which is still practiced by his followers in the USA . How many sects are there now as a result of Joseph Smith ?

    Yes Joseph Smith was imprisoned many times but its the same with organised criminals like the mafia and they still continue their activities until they are killed off or die ..

    Steffie

    What has Joseph restored exactly ? Polygamy ? Marrying other mens wives ? old men marrying young girls ? Power and Control to one claiming to be led by God ? Did he have food programmes for the poor , schools for the uneducated , hospitals for the sick etc

    He looked busy building up his career to me !

    He more likely created something rather than restore anything !The New Testament has no resemblance to His Restored teachings ..

    This church you are in is actually Brigham Youngs church .There are many others claiming to have Joseph as their founding prophet and one has just been on Trial for arranging marriages against a girls will , just like Brigham Young did …

    Comment by elder joseph — October 26, 2007 @ 4:51 pm |Reply

  80. marlajayne,

    I have to say that I have always known who I was having sex with. The Judah and Lot stories don’t wash with me.

    EJ,

    As you know, the LDS church would say that the main thing JS restored is the Priesthood/Authority and church organizational structure. Beyond that he didn’t really restore anything, but as you say, introduced many things, including scripture like PofGP, D&C, and oh yeah, BofM.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 26, 2007 @ 5:41 pm |Reply

  81. EJ, It’s pointless to try communicating with you, so this is where we part company. Just so you’ll know, I was “born and bred” a Southern Baptist and converted to Mormonism after being married to one for eleven years. I’m not an impulsive person, and this is something that I studied, pondered, and prayed about for years.

    Before going our separate ways, however, I’ll take a moment to comment on your last remark, The “big reason” that the church is spreading so fast is because it’s true and because it offers comfort, solace, and peace to any and all who desire to feast at the table of the Most High God. Yes, all churches have truth; it’s just that I want the whole enchilada…and the dessert too.

    Bishop Rick, When you say the stories don’t wash with you, do you mean you haven’t read them or that you don’t beleive them? (Genesis 19: 30-38, Lot and his daughter; Genesis 38, Judah story). I must admit that they’re pretty “out there,” and yet I have no reason to believe that they’re false. I became aware of them when a former co-worker and I were discussing a situation in which someone had told her that he just couldn’t read the Bible because it was too sappy. She asked him incredulously, “Have you read it??? It’s anything but sappy.”

    Comment by marlajayne — October 27, 2007 @ 12:43 am |Reply

  82. marlajayne

    Your very typical of many mormons . you expect us to agree and accept your claims of only true church . You dislike a dose of reality about your founders and doctrines

    you say
    “all churches have truth;”

    I’ve read journal Of Discourses , thats not the view of The Prophets and Apostles of that time and neither is it the view of the Book Of Mormon or Bruce McConkie .It also contradicts your own D&C which says “this is the only true church on the face of the earth ” It doesn’t say the most truthfull it says ‘the only’ …

    you said

    ” it’s just that I want the whole enchilada…and the dessert too. ”

    Well the whole enchilada is Polygamy not monogomy,so why not tell investigators the whole enchilada .Why pretend you are a christian monogomous church teaching ‘families can be forever ‘when the reality is ‘families will be polygamous forever’ according to your own teachings.

    Comment by elder joseph — October 27, 2007 @ 1:03 am |Reply

  83. Ej, she just told you she was baptist, and so that means she was an investigator at some point herself.

    What you need to realize EJ, is that us Mormons, understand the history, yet we STILL know it’s true.

    And we also know that these anti people try to warp the history to make people (such as yourself) unable to see that it is true because they have embedded this poop in your head.

    Don’t be chasing my sweet LDS girls away with this hatefulness!

    Soften your heart!!!!!!!! Then you will see!

    Marlajayne: Please don’t let EJ get to you. I know he can be a such a butt, but he just doesn’t understand the knowledge that we have. I pray that one day he will!!!! There are so many people out there who have the same views as he does. It’s sad isn’t it 😦

    Comment by steffielynn — October 27, 2007 @ 6:21 am |Reply

  84. steffie ,

    Have you ever considered that there is a real possibilty that it may be you thats mistaken . And that you have been subject to mind control or thought reform because of your well intentioned feelings and vulnerability . Good people with sincere hearts are always prey for Sinister Cult Leaders ..

    Why did Brigham Young teach that multiple women had to marry him and that it was necessary for their exaltation ? He even taught he didn’t need them for his own exhaltation when they were complaining about polygamy …. and threatened he would divorce them all and they could spend eternity as eunuchs in a lesser kingdom while he would have wives waiting for him ..

    Why did Joseph Smith marry his followers wives ?

    Would you have married Joseph Smith while your husband was away and without his knowledge ? What do you understand about this if I’ve misunderstood it ?

    If Gordon Hinckley ‘called’ you to marry your stake president , would you pray about it or would you tell him to shove it ? I know you would tell him to shove it ! 🙂

    This is what was happening to the early saints females .

    Have you read about Nancy Rigdon , Martha Brotherton or Sarah Pratt ?

    I know that you are strong like these women .They all refused the Prophet Joseph Smiths marriage proposals and saw the threats from him afterwards …He didn’t take kindly to rejection !

    What has all this to do with Jesus Christ and the New Testament Church ? I didn’t read anything like this in the early church …

    Comment by elder joseph — October 27, 2007 @ 9:16 am |Reply

  85. EJ

    Let me just say, if things happened the way you claim they did, then yes I have a problem with it. But even if I had a problem with it it is not my problem. Joseph Smith, if he did something wrong, will have to answer to God, not to me. Does this mean he could not have been a prophet. NO

    The REAL problem is I don’t know how things really went down, and I never will. I believe that you may be a bit prejudice and your ideas are over the top. BUT I think maybe some of the things you have found may have been true. With that said, I STILL believe the church is true.

    Am I frustrating you? Probably, let me explain (again)

    As you know the reason I joined the church to begin with is because I prayed about it and I recieved an answer. And as you know something amazing occured in my heart. This is why I joined the church. And this is why this polygamy stuff is trivial.

    Before I joined the LDS church I went to many churches. All of them were ok, but NONE of them ever felt right. I have asked many Pastors what happens when you die, I would get answers like, “Those who make it to heaven will be in eternal bliss as one big family, you will not know your husband or children as your husband and children, everyone will be the same, there will be no relationship ties to anyone.”

    I was told this by numerous pastors and preachers. I would ALWAYS leave feeling discusted and appalled. How could this be? I knew that if this was true, then this would not be heaven, it would be HELL. What a cruel thing for God to do to us.

    So as you know, as an investigator I was taught about eternal marriage. I almost fell out of my seat. The one church I could not stand was the same church that taught something I believed.

    What I am trying to say EJ is that I have been there, done that. I questioned the LDS church all my life. Now that I understand, and I know what they truely believe I have changed my view.

    I KNOW that families are forever, I have always known that. I have always known there was a true church, and now I have found it.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 27, 2007 @ 4:18 pm |Reply

  86. Steffie ,

    You never frustrate me . Maybe I frustrate you 🙂

    I just don’t understand how you accept the polygamy doctrine … You too would have been targetted by Joseph Smith because you are pretty 🙂

    How would your husband cope with that ? I had one missionary tell me he would have thumped Joseph Smith if he approached his then future wife ! I wish people would have but they were scared , frightened, told to be humble with broken and contrite spirits .

    I’ve always believed families are forever without the LDS church or before I even knew they believed that .I just don’t know how it will be or where Heaven or Heavenly father is ?

    Have I had some kind of revelation or something ?

    I never thought of packaging my belief into a religion and then exploiting my followers sincerity like i believe Joseph and Brigham did ..

    Do you now believe that your family will only be together if you all obey the Mormon System including paying tithe ? no temple recommend no family forever according them .

    I do think tithe is a good way to the fund the church but to believe you will lose your family without paying it is pretty cruel , then there is the threat of being burned as well .When I brought this up in investigators class , everyone was too embarrassed to explain to me the burning !

    But how will families are forever be possible in Mormonism when you and your husband ( and his extra wives ) expect to procreate spirit children for your own planets and your TBM children will aspire to do the same for their planets etc .. And how will you be with your heavenly father if he is with his heavenly father in that CK and his own family forever etc as well ?
    how will it all work according to mormonism ?

    It doesn’t make sense to me yet this is Mormon belief …. attaching too many supposed answers through revelation ( stone in a hat ) to the unknown and now it brings up even more questions ..

    Poor Angel Moroni , he is elevated above all the temples and yet he failed in getting married and became an angel instead , hardly a role model ! lol surely it would have been better to have a married person as a symbol of the Temple instead…. To have a eunuch as a symbol of The Temple is kind of odd to me … maybe they should have had Joseph Smith and his many wives above the temple …

    To me Mormonism takes away whats rightfully ours and then let us have it back in return for obedience to them and if necessary for women to loose their virtue and dignity and self respect to the prophets as happened in times past .

    I worry about Joseph Smiths Narcissism and self importance .If he had lived longer its scary that he might even have proclaimed himself to be God at the rate he was going at …

    Testing his followers by asking for their wives is despicable. To do that to a fellow human being trying to do his best to serve what he thinks is Jesus Christ is sheer cruelty and abuse and then to marry 11 of his followers wives as well is disturbing …

    I never read any of the new Testament Apostles asking for mens wives or for multiple wives and yet you say you believe in them ? This is a religion of one mans teachings namely ‘Joseph Smith’ .. Warren Jeffs too is revered by his followers in the same way and are married off in the same way also .. Old men to young girls too………. just like Brigham Young did , recorded in JOD’s ….

    Somehow you are able to accept this , but I just can’t , that is the biggest stumbling block for me as you know … and the reason why I post on here ….

    But I attend church myself and maybe you could argue how do I stomach it ? 🙂

    Well I just focus on the people who seem sincere as you do yourself . But I have a deep feeling that I’ll be on my way out and its very sad in a way …..

    I know too that families are forever and that there is a true church made up of believers of many different sects !

    Well if you have gone through the tribulations that I am going through over polygamy then I know you are sincere for taking the plunge .I think you are mistaken though 🙂

    Its strange but the LDs church has always felt right to me as well . But I can’t go on that feeling … There are many aspects of its doctrines which certainly don’t feel right …

    Comment by elder joseph — October 27, 2007 @ 6:46 pm |Reply

  87. Ih ave been missing all this…. When I get back from Cabo I will have to join in again!

    Comment by CoventryRM — October 29, 2007 @ 3:59 pm |Reply

  88. Marlajayne,

    I don’t believe them. I believe that the OT is riddled with myth and old wives tails (no offense to old wives).

    It seems silly to me that Lot’s posterity needed to be preserved so his daughters had sex with him and both (laughingly) bore him sons. Has anyone heard of Lot’s posterity beyond this story? Hmmm, guess it didn’t work.

    SIDE NOTE:
    Why are all births mentioned in the scriptures about males?
    Sure woman are mentioned, but not their births.
    All births are male births.
    This is the same in the BofM.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 29, 2007 @ 4:16 pm |Reply

  89. Bishop Rick, Great question about why female births aren’t mentioned, and I guess we know the answer to that, right? Female births are just not that important, especially in the OT. I might be wrong about this, but isn’t one of the Jewish prayers something like, “Thank you God that I was not born a woman.”

    Lot’s posterity…I think it was the Moabites and the Ammonites, but who their children (males AND females) were, I don’t know. Hmmm, maybe a little research project.

    And Judah and his daughter-in-law…do you disbelieve that one too?

    Comment by marlajayne — October 29, 2007 @ 5:37 pm |Reply

  90. Steffielynn, You’re a marvel. Really. Thanks for taking up for me with EJ.

    I almost hestitate to bring this up, but I am anyway. A few years ago when Bill Clinton was having “relations” with Monica Lewinsky, a male friend of mine was SO IRATE about it. “How,” he asked, “could Americans respect a man who couldn’t even control his own passions?” I was aghast. Why? Because this man, despite having a loving wife and family, was a known skirt chaser. Actually, he was a philanderer who had seldom been faithful to his wife during their entire marriage. Yet he was ultra critical of the president. I asked him if perhaps he could be guilty of projection or maybe even reaction formation, a couple of defense mechanisms that can be quite revealing.

    Ah, the enchilada and trimmings are so yummy! And did I mention the fried ice cream?

    Comment by marlajayne — October 29, 2007 @ 5:48 pm |Reply

  91. I don’t believe that Judah did not know who he was having sex with. What I’m saying is that if he did indeed have sex with his DIL, he knew what he was doing.

    ——————

    Religion has always been a patriarchal order, although interestingly, there have be female prophets. (we just don’t know when they were born 🙂

    So my questions are:
    How were prophets called in the days of old?
    I believe they were called of God directly, I know Moses was called directly.

    Why aren’t LDS prophets called in a similar fashion?
    Simply having the Apostle with the longest tenior becoming prophet doesn’t seem to quite cut it. If an Apostle dies, the assumption is that God didn’t want him to be prophet. I think this is ridiculous. God should be involved directly (not because I said so, but out of precedence). Also, it assures that there will never be another female prophet…Not sure what to think about that.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 29, 2007 @ 6:08 pm |Reply

  92. EJ the way you put it into perspective (your perspective) IS confusing!

    I do not agree that polygamy will be the rule in Heaven. Maybe not at all! I do not think we will all have our own planets etc. I think these are ideas from prophets, but their own personal ideas. I have my own ideas about what it will be like. But of course NONE of us will know or understand til we get there.

    I believe it is necessary to go to the temple and be sealed. I wasn’t sure what it would be like because no one talks about it, but I can tell you that it was beautiful, and right. We commited to each other, before God that we will be together forever, not just for life. It changes things in your marriage when you look at it from this perspective! We no longer worry about things we used to worry about. I personally am able to trust my husband, something I was never able to do before (not because of him, but because of my past experiences) I believe with all my heart our Heavenly Father wants ALL His children to make this commitment!

    MarlaJayne,

    You are so sweet!
    EJ needs a good kick in the rear, he can be frustrating with all his ranting 🙂 but really he is great! And I feel he will come around someday! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 29, 2007 @ 6:26 pm |Reply

  93. Oh – EJ is British – that explains a lot 

    BTW – are you (EJ) calling us (LDS) a Sinister Cult? I though you had some respect for us – If you did call us that – I’m sorry that you really don’t know us that well – We are honest – hard working people – we have a strong faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ – We believe that we have a prophet that guides us today and we believe that the prophet will not guide as in the wrong path –
    When Jesus was on the earth – and his follower listen to his every word and the spirit confirmed to them that Jesus was the Christ – the Son of God – they followed every word that he taught knowing that he would not lead them down the wrong path – and when Jesus left they followed the apostles the same as the did Jesus – but even then – the voices of those that said that they were a cult – under mind control won out and the church – the authority of that church was taken away –
    Well that authority is back, never to be taken away again – it rest on GBH –
    Now you can believe me or not – but that is my belief that I am willing to discuss – but I do not see a need to defend 

    Peace and Grace –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 29, 2007 @ 9:17 pm |Reply

  94. MarlaJayne,

    You are right. Lot’s posterity consists of the Moabites and Ammonites. Both considered non-Israelites and Israelite antagonists. Not much purpose there that I can see.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 29, 2007 @ 9:19 pm |Reply

  95. Hi EJ –

    You’re putting in facts that have not been proven – at least not in the LDS circle – that Joseph and Brigham targeted pretty girls to have sex with – so with that said the rest of your arguments against polygamy can not be taken seriously by me –

    LDS have the D&C that talks about the everlasting convent – this is what I believe – I am so happy that I do not have to have more that one wife – I love my wife so much that I could not fathom ever being with another woman no a less loving another woman – But I am not called to that –

    In the study of polygamy – men were called to have more that one wife – many did not want to – it’s something that was part of that time –

    I don’t see any discussion about how bad polygamy was for the OT people – or the many cultures that still live it – So why pick on the Mormons – or are we just an easy target I promise to keep moving fast)))))

    Comment by happyman4 — October 29, 2007 @ 9:26 pm |Reply

  96. It is true that we have no idea if JS’s plural wives were pretty or not, but if you take the stand that JS’s intentions were carnal in nature, and not eternal, then EJ’s assumption is reasonable, even if not provable.

    I personally find it interesting that polygamy has no NT basis. Polygamy was practiced in the OT, but was put up with by, not commanded of God. No where in the OT was polygamy a commandment.

    This is the sort of thing that has people like EJ up in arms over the practice, and that leads them to think that JS made it up for personal (rather than eternal) reasons.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 29, 2007 @ 9:37 pm |Reply

  97. Hi Bishop –

    I agree with your statement about it having no NT basis and that we have no direct quote/command from God in the OT –

    I can even understand was EJ is up in arms with the practice – when I left the church it was one of my sticking points –

    What LDS have now – is the D&C and for us that is scripture –

    BTW – no one has brought up that the BoM doesn’t like it either –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 29, 2007 @ 9:44 pm |Reply

  98. I hate to burst your bubbles, Bishop Rick and happyman4, but there may be NT evidence of polygamy, after all. Visit:

    http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com

    to learn all about it.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — October 29, 2007 @ 10:47 pm |Reply

  99. happyman

    I didn’t say they targetted pretty girls to have sex with .I said Brigham and crew targetted young girls to concieve with .For you there may be a difference ? For me they still had to have sex .Why couldn’t they concieve with a young man they may have chosen to marry , why did they have to be arranged marriages with old LDS leaders ?

    JOD VOL 9 page 37 Brigham Young

    “How will you be happy? Love the Giver more than the gift. Delightyourselves in your duties, mothers. Here are the middle-aged and the young.I AM NOW ALMOST DAILY SEALING YOUNG GIRLS TO MEN OF AGE AND EXPERIENCE . Love your duties, sisters. Are you sealed to a good man?
    Yes, to a man of God. It is for you to bear fruit and bring forth, tothe praise of God, the spirits that are born in yonder heavens and are to take tabernacles on the earth. You have the privilege of forming tabernacles for those spirits, instead of their being brought into this wicked world that God may have a royal Priesthood, a royalpeople, on the earth. That is what plurality of wives is for, and notto gratify lustful desires. Sisters, do you wish to make yourselveshappy? Then what is your duty? It is for you to bear children, in thename of the Lord, that are full of faith and the power of God,—to receive, conceive, bear, and bring forth in the name of Israel’s God that you may have the honour of being the mothers of great and good
    men—of kings, princes, and potentates that shall yet live on the earth and govern and control the nations. Do you look forward to that?”

    The above is sheer arogance …

    the quotes below may refer to pretty women .I know the journal Of Doscourse quote is real , I checked …

    Speaking to a group of departing missionaries…

    “Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.”
    – Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

    and again…

    “I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen”
    – Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.

    The next one is a threat of HELL to the women if they don’t take to polygamy from Brigham Young ! I thought they believe in three kingdoms etc !Why HELL ?

    “Brother George A. Smith has been reading a little out of the revelation concerning celestial marriage, and I want to say to my sisters that if you lift you heels against this revelation, and say that you would obliterate it, and put it out of existence if you had the power to nullify and destroy it, I say that if you imbibe that spirit and feeling,YOU WILL GO TO HELL JUST AS SURE AS YOU ARE LIVING WOMEN………………………….You sisters may say that plural marriage is very hard for you to bear. It is no such thing. A man or woman who would not spend his or her life in building up the kingdom of God on the earth, without a companion, and travel and preach, valise in hand, is worthy of God or his kingdom and they never will be crowned, they cannot be crowned; the sacrifice must be complete. If it is the duty of a husband to take a wife, take her. But it is not the privilege of a woman to dictate the husband, and tell who or how many he shall take, or what he shall do with them when he gets them, but it is the duty of the woman to submit cheerfully”
    Brigham Young Journal Of Discourses VOL 17 page 159

    Now all this doesn’t feel right .It doesn’t resemble the first century New Testament church whatsoever that I read about thats supposed to have been restored ..

    and finally after all that polygamy 4 years before he dies Brigham Young said

    Brigham Young Jourmal Of Discourses Vol 16 p70 ,JUNE 28, 1873

    ” I do not know that I shall have a wife or child in the resurrection. I have never had any thoughts or reflections upon this, or cared the first thing about it. ”

    Women are just ‘things ‘ to these men to do and threaten as they pleased .Non of this can be attributed to Jesus Christ .iIts an insult and blasphemy to suggest he forced this on them ..
    They were deprived of a normal marriage relationship .

    I give tribute to Nancy Rigdon , Martha Brotherton and Sarah Pratt who had courage to rebuff these Powerfull men who thought they were God’s representatives .

    And sarah Pratt was already married to Orson Pratt , so why was Joseph Smith trying to marry her while her husband was on a mission ?

    Happyman .. Maybe Joseph will take your wife off you too ? He did that to 11 men and tried many more ……

    Comment by elder joseph — October 29, 2007 @ 11:10 pm |Reply

  100. Hapyman4

    You said

    “Oh – EJ is British – that explains a lot 

    BTW – are you (EJ) calling us (LDS) a Sinister Cult? I though you had some respect for us – If you did call us that – I’m sorry that you really don’t know us that well – We are honest – hard working people – we have a strong faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ – We believe that we have a prophet that guides us today and we believe that the prophet will not guide as in the wrong path –”

    Well not all of you are Honest .you believe in those things but many don’t practice it .. I know you very well I’ve spent two years investigating .. Many of you are really nice and genuine , thats why I still attend for now …

    1 Paul Dunn lied all his life to sell his books and Cd’s etc ..
    2 Joseph Smith and the early secret polygamists Lied about polygamy ..
    3 Gordon Hinckley lied in an interview when asked if you believe that God was once a man ? he said I don’t know that we teach it !
    4 Oliver Cowdery lied when he said they used the Urim and Thummim to translate, It was Josephs stone and hat !
    5 Mormons lie every day when they say we don’t believe other church’s are from Satan .They have truth but not the full truth .They teach good and good comes from God BUT The Temple endowment pre 1990 potrayed a church minister doing a deal with SATAN to teach false religion in return for money !
    6 Joseph Smith lied to 14 year old Helen Marr Kimball .he told her that she needed to be married to him so her and her family would secure a high place in Celestial Kingdom .

    there is nothing I have said that warants any kind of dissaproval from any Mormons , unless I’ve made any errors in which I would gladly stand to be corrected .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 29, 2007 @ 11:23 pm |Reply

  101. Anarchist,

    No bubble burst. Your website shows nothing. There are no instances in the NT of anyone practicing polygamy. The only mention is a stretch in the parable of the 10 bridesmaids.

    Sorry, nothing there.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 29, 2007 @ 11:45 pm |Reply

  102. I didn’t say there was proof, I said there may be evidence in the NT. The parable of the 10 virgins is just evidence that the Lord didn’t have a problem with polygamy, but the web site’s author brings up a valid point about the original greek word for “one” being translatable as either “one” or “first.” Using the English word “one” presents a prohibition to polygamy, but using “first” as the English word presents a picture that early bishops may have had more than one wife. That is possible evidence of NT polygamy.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — October 30, 2007 @ 1:35 am |Reply

  103. EJ,

    You are so hard on the church and the people. And you are being offensive, you are mixing opinion with fact. You love the LDS people and you know they are not liars. So stop being a goober.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 30, 2007 @ 1:44 am |Reply

  104. Anarchist,

    That’s a good bit of research. Keep it coming.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 30, 2007 @ 2:27 am |Reply

  105. Steffielynn,

    While EJ may be mixing opinion with fact (though I agree with him), at least he is not overlooking the facts, BECAUSE of his opinions, as is the case with many Mormons. While I can’t speak for EJ, I am “hard” on the church b/c the “facts” clearly show it to not be of God. It is a false, man-made religion, propagated mainly by 2 men (Smith and Young) who had power issues. The facts don’t lie about that.

    Comment by Brad — October 30, 2007 @ 12:13 pm |Reply

  106. Well Brad it’s ok for you to have your own opinions and disagree. But I tend to believe the people who knew these men and loved them, their opinion seems more valid then those who hated them.

    Brigham and Joseph had some of their own ideas, some were different, and they may have been harsh sometimes, maybe even weird. But these were their veiws/opinions.

    I see the church as it is today, I see our prophets and the men of the church who hold the priesthood. They are such great examples of Christ like men. I trust these people, and I believe they are honest, good, men of God.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 30, 2007 @ 12:22 pm |Reply

  107. Brad – what is your religion?

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 12:31 pm |Reply

  108. Why, b/c they “seem” that way? It’s not about the men, it’s about what you believe in. Great men can believe in a lie, doesn’t make them not great men, just makes their beliefs wrong. You need to be able to separate that. Look at WHAT you believe in, and the evidence (or lack thereof, as the case may be) for it. Look past the men, to the beliefs. Are they correct? Are they based on Scripture? Does the evidence back them up? Not just feelings, but real evidence?

    Overwhelmingly with Mormonism, the answer is no. It’s just not there. I’m not saying that Mormons aren’t good people, I’m just saying the beliefs are wrong.

    Comment by Brad — October 30, 2007 @ 1:31 pm |Reply

  109. Happyman, I’m evangelical Christian. Denomination doesn’t matter. And before you say “so am I”, let me first say that you’re not.

    Comment by Brad — October 30, 2007 @ 1:32 pm |Reply

  110. Brad – I would never call myself that –
    so you think that Catholic aren’t saved either and anyone that has a different view of the world as you do isn’t saved either – You may claim the bible as your authority – but who’s translation? NIV – KJV – NAS – and who’s interpretation? Once saved always saved or you can be saved – lost and saved again – If the bread that Jesus used at the last supper really his body – of just figurative – and I suppose that Love that is preached in the gospel is only for those that believe in the same way you do – but where is your authority? Where is your churches authority? You didn’t get it from the Catholic that for sure….

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 2:54 pm |Reply

  111. steffielynn

    you said

    “You are so hard on the church and the people. And you are being offensive, you are mixing opinion with fact. You love the LDS people and you know they are not liars. So stop being a goober.”

    If there is anything you don’t like on my list then don’t blame me .I never did or said any of those things .They were all done and said by men claiming to be inspired of God , and even claiming to be prophets …

    How can I be offensive if what I have said is real and factual .And how does my opinion come into it ? Are you saying they didn’t lie ?

    Yes I know ‘Many’ Ordinary Latter Day Saints are fine and honest . Like I said before if you started the church then I would join. I can’t imagine you saying or doing any of those things ? Can you ? So how can I trust those in office who are known to lie ?

    you said to Brad “Well Brad it’s ok for you to have your own opinions and disagree. But I tend to believe the people who knew these men and loved them, their opinion seems more valid then those who hated them. ”

    So what about all those who fled from Joseph like ,Oliver Cowdery , Martin Harris, David, john,Peter ,Jacob and Christian Whitmer , John C Bennett,William Law , Sidney Rigdon ..

    These were all close associates , why would they fall out with Joseph Smith if he was a nice man ? They all sacrificed money and property …

    William Law’s wife was approached by Joseph Smith for secret polygamy and she turned him down.

    Sidney Rigdons young 19 year old daughter was also propositioned by Joseph Smith for his secret polygamy and she turned him down ..

    How is all this kind of thing related to Jesus Christ ?

    Do we see Jesus or the Apostles behaving like this , asking for followers wives , young girls etc ?

    How can Joseph have restored the New Testament church if they didn’t have this secret polygamy to be restored in the first place ?

    and just one more item , you’ll be relieved to know ! lol

    you said

    “I see the church as it is today, I see our prophets and the men of the church who hold the priesthood. They are such great examples of Christ like men. I trust these people, and I believe they are honest, good, men of God.”

    I understand how you feel , I try to see the church today like you do , but i do see the cover up and whitewashing of history and misleading of prospective converts about the history..

    you say you trust ‘ these people’ , but who do you trust because how do feel if you would have trusted Paul Dunn ? His inspirational real life talks were simply lies ! What a thing to do to sincere people like yourself .I feel you deserve alot better Steffie .

    I fear one day your trust will be severly destroyed and then you will hear the famous ” The church is perfect but the people are not ” excuse for Liars and crooks in the church .. Its a haven for Men who desire Authority and Control of people …

    happyman 4

    You seem obsessed with authority ?

    Where does Joseph Smith get authority to marry his teen house maids , demand his followers wives after demanding money and property , marry women who were already married..

    Where does a man like Brigham Young get Authority to take wives as he pleased , to take young teen girls , to take wives off his followers and then 4 years before his death say he wasn’t bothered or even knew if he would have any of them in the afterlife and didn’t even think about it !

    Journal Of Discourses Vol 16 p70 ,JUNE 28, 1873
    I do not know that I shall have a wife or child in the resurrection. I have never had any thoughts or reflections upon this, or cared the first thing about it. All that I have had in my mind has been that it was my duty to do the will of God, and to labor to establish his kingdom on the earth.

    And You believe you have this same line of authority ? The Priesthood ?

    Can you really keep a good conscience knowing all this ?

    Comment by elder joseph — October 30, 2007 @ 3:39 pm |Reply

  112. EJ – I sleep very well because I KNOW that the church is true – I need not worry if I should die – I know that I will be in the Saviors arms – and He will say to me – Good and Faithful Servant – and that I will be united with my family…

    I am sorry that you do not have this faith – it would make you a very happy person, you would know – who you are – A Child of God!

    But since you do not have that kind of faith– why try to hurt those that do – that seems so sad to me. Are you on Buddhist list to trying to convince then that they aren’t saved either?

    Even when I left for may of the things that you pointed – I never ranted about it – the hashish I would be would to say that the members of church were honest and loving people who lived what they believed – I would add that I they did have a strange theology that I did not agree with – but that was the extent – for faith is a deeply held and deeply personal – so when you attach someone’s faith – you are attacking them –whether you say that oh – I really like Mormons but…..they this and they that and JS did this and BY did that – nip nip nip….

    Anti Mormons (and I consider you one) have a need to prove that we are wrong and they are right – (and they do it in hurtful ways – attaching what they really don’t understand – I’m not sure if you see that) they do not desire to have a discussion about beliefs – to agree with those principles that we agree on and to accept that we will not always agree on everything – but to have a healthy respect for one another – They say they want to discuss thing – but not really – and your words speak for you –

    Jesus love us to love one another – how are you showing love –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 4:12 pm |Reply

  113. Steffielynn –

    You are a very strong woman – please don’t let any of these naysayers ripple your faith – There are many millions of us now – not like in 1830 when there were only six –

    Believe me the Church has the answers – You have felt the Holy Spirit –

    I doubt that any of these people could lead you away from the church –

    From what I have read – you have a wonderful marriage – and that marriage can only get stronger in the Church –

    Not sure if hubby is a jar-head – but if he is –give him a Semper Fi from one Marine to another for me!

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 4:26 pm |Reply

  114. happyman,

    I do not believe the mormon church is what it claims, but I agree with many of your points.

    I personally don’t think your religion dictates whether you are saved or not. That seems ridiculous to me. I believe that any reward or punishment that a person receives will be tied to the intent of their heart.

    I also struggle with discussions like these, though I agree with EJ on almost all accounts, you bring up why would someone want to take away faith just because you don’t have it. That is a very fair point. That is my BIGGEST struggle in life right now. My family all have faith in the LDS church…I don’t, but I’m not sure I want to change that either. They are comfortable in their beliefs and live good lives.

    Anyway, for what its worth.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — October 30, 2007 @ 9:16 pm |Reply

  115. Hi Bishop Rick –

    I use the term “saved” because its a term used by most evangelicals and other protestants – I do believe, like you, that we will be judged by what we know (what we did with that knowledge) and how we treated others – the Gospel of Jesus Christ is fundamentally about God and loving one another – My family all had faith in the LDS church when I lost mine – but I never lost faith in Christ – and now I’m back – go figure…

    I go back to a saying by Mother Theresa – be the best (fillin the blank) as you can…

    Peace and Grace –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 30, 2007 @ 9:26 pm |Reply

  116. Brad,
    I accept that the LDS prophets and the BOM could be true, I just don’t know or even feel comfortable saying that I believe they are true. I am searching these things out right now trying to find truth that I can honestly accept. Until then I lean on my belief in Christ as my Savior and nothing else.

    Comment by Jay — October 30, 2007 @ 10:58 pm |Reply

  117. happyman4

    What do you mean you KNOW that the church is true ?
    and where is faith if you KNOW something ?

    Maybe you are saying you know the beliefs that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young gave you are True ?

    Does that imply what they did was true ?

    I don’t understand why you choose Mormons ? and then have to cope with Joseph Smiths marriage practices …. Brigham Youngs absurdities etc etc …which all make some of my wordly friends far more Christlike to me …..

    I couldn’t cope with having to defend them .I get grief now from friends just with Donny Osmond appearing on the biggest gambling Casino in the UK .The UK national lottery … I feel a right fool now promoting the church’s stance on the lottery while all the time they collect his unclean tithes made from Lottery hosting and money game shows . When we had a lesson on Integrity from Kimballs book it made me sick to know the church hasn’t pulled Donny up or refused his tithes ….

    I’m not Antimormon either . Thats just your way of evading the facts in my opinion … just brush off everything uncomfortable as antimormon …

    You have a joined a church which says all others are wrong , creeds are abominations and all the professors are corrupt and you talk about me being anti mormon .
    Doesn’t that make you Anti Christian then because that revelation encompasses all the Christian demonations !

    I find it a disgrace that early missionaries were converting women in England and then when they arived in Nauvoo they were being propositioned for secret polygamous marriages without being told about it beforehand …I’m speaking about the Martha Brotherton
    case .

    The church operates in the same manner even now .. Milk before meat ..

    I asked my missionaries about the points you choose to avoid and they told me that The prophets can do what the they like because they are of God .So there you have the answer .They can do what they like ..

    Even take your wife from you , your 14 year old daughter , if they assertain you don’t magnify your calling and show blind obedience to them .Thats how they operated in the past ….

    Its in the JOD’s …..

    Have you read the acount of Henry B Jacobs ? How Joseph smith married his wife and the later Brigham Young took her off him as well …

    JOD 3:265 Brigham Young
    “No man has a right to a wife or wives unless he honors his priesthood and magnifies his calling before God .”

    In my opinion Brigham Young The Dictator !

    Am I really nit picking here or is there a real concern ?

    you said of Steffie
    ” From what I have read – you have a wonderful marriage – and that marriage can only get stronger in the Church -”

    I believe the church could even threaten it if one or the other decides the church isn’t true but the other one still believes its true . Whereas before they didn’t have that potential problem ……

    They have the best faith going … in each other and not an external institution ….

    Comment by elder joseph — October 31, 2007 @ 12:03 am |Reply

  118. Happyman4,

    Thank you, 🙂 You don’t have to worry about me though, my faith is unwavering! I have experienced too many wonderful things in the last 2 and a half years, I cannot ever deny what I know.

    I know where you are comming from, we have experienced the same joy that is found in the gospel. It is unexplainable, even though we try 🙂

    The others here do not understand what it is we have, so they cannot grasp what we are telling them. I do not say this to offend anyone, I hope no one takes offense.

    You guys cannot understand why we won’t accept the things you tell us, or the fact these things do not bother us. It is because we have a different knowledge, one you can not find in a book, it comes from within, and it is not something you can explain, or argue.

    happyman has been through it, he’s been on both sides. I think his points should be respected.

    If you do not feel the same it’s ok, just know you won’t be convincing us. 🙂

    EJ,

    Happyman is correct, my marriage is so much stronger since joining the church. We have grown together, instead of apart like most young couples. Most of our non LDS friends are divorced already. Our marriage was in sorry shape 3 years ago, we did not know where we were headed. I loved him of course but we had NO direction, and no plans or goals. My heart has changed in more ways than one! Not only that but we are now super awesome parents! And our kids are being brought up with morals!!!!!

    I just want everyone here to know that even though we disagree I have learned a lot from all of you. You have enriched my life and made things interesting! Thanks for that! 🙂

    Steff 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 31, 2007 @ 1:36 am |Reply

  119. Steffie ,

    You must dread seeing ‘Elder Joseph’ on the recent comments list …

    I’m sorry about that , but I need to be honest and straight to the point and you are one of the very few persons ( Mormons ) that has allowed me to do that .I’m very grateful for this ….

    I get censored , blocked , deleted on you tube when I just mention something lightly to some TBM’s , they are so ignorant ….

    We shouldn’t ever have to feel intimidated to the point where we are to scared to say the truth incase someone gets upset …..

    How do you tell a married woman who worships her husband as the most faithfull man on earth when you know he’s been deceiving and lying to her ? Should we say anything incase it shatters her dreamworld , what are we supposed to do ?

    This is how I feel about Mormonism .Its an awful feeling 😦

    I do need to improve on the way I present my information , I admit and actually you have taught me to calm down a little now that I know some Mormons do keep open minds at least .. Thank you for this 🙂

    Happyman4

    I’m glad you understand how I feel as you went through a similar time youself and most surely more traumatic having been a sincere member .Its hard for me to believe you came back unless you did it for family’s sake , which is understandable .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 31, 2007 @ 12:44 pm |Reply

  120. EJ

    I do NOT dread seeing your name! I really enjoy our conversations. I just believe differently then you. My hope for you (and others who disagree) is that you will understand some of our basic beliefs. I want people to know that we most definetly believe in Christ, and it is because of Him that we are saved. I want people to know that Mormons are very good people and love God with all their heart. If you will just know this much about us then I will be VERY happy. 🙂

    I seriously understand your points, and your feelings. And if I did not have a personal knowledge you would have convinced me to leave. But you’d be convincing me because of doubt and fear. Not because of truth.

    I do not doubt because of this knowledge I have. I do not fear because peace was given to me. I wish more then anything that I could give you what I have.

    I wish more mormons were more open minded, but I can understand why they are not. Until I joined the church I had never been “discriminated” against. I was just like everyone else.

    Since I joined the church i have had sooooooo many people be mean, rude, and hateful to me, just because I am LDS. Like I have a disease or something. Some people want to cure it, and others just stay away, so they don’t catch it. It’s weird.

    I understand the analogy you have used, and why you are so passionate about trying to get people out. But I have been presented with both sides, and I have chosen where I stand. The only thing that will make me leave would be God telling me to do so. I have actually prayed about the things we discuss here. Each time I pray and read my scriptures I am assured that the LDS church is true. Again and again and again.

    Comment by steffielynn — October 31, 2007 @ 1:53 pm |Reply

  121. EJ –

    I came back because not because of my family – but because i felt the Spirit so strong in Provo – that I could not deny that I felt the Spirit of God tell me something – I focus on the next few weeks to a deep study of the BoM and PoGP – I found my lost testimony – I can not deny what i felt and I can not deny what my heart and mind have now come to believe – that the BoM is really true –

    Peace –

    Comment by happyman4 — October 31, 2007 @ 3:57 pm |Reply

  122. Steffie,
    You may experience the rude people because of where you are more than anything. The Bible belt is a tough place for Mormons. There are only two places where I have had people be rude to me because I was a Mormon, Church pagents (i.e. Hill Cumorah, Manti, Navuoo) and Tennessee. It’s amazing how some people can be talking with you, being very nice, one minute and after you tell them you’re Mormon (because they ask) they turn quite and want to leave. I feel sad for them because they have been lead to believe that someone is evil simply because they don’t believe the same way they do. I often think that it would be so much better if they tried to reach out. By avoiding others with different belief systems they show how little they care for the people around them. This seems very unchristian to me.

    I’ve been to other “Christian” churches where the LDS and a few other religions are mocked and degraded. I don’t think this is what Christ would want and I have almost no respect for Churches that engage in taring others down and treating their beliefs lightly.

    One thing I admire about the LDS Church is that, as a church, they don’t do that. They respect others and their beliefs even if they don’t agree with them. I know that some take the LDS faith saying it is the one true church as an attack, but I don’t feel that is the same as what some churches do in the Sunday meetings. I think people that grow up exposed to that kind of talk every Sunday start to believe it and then shun anyone that doesn’t think the way they do. Its really sad. Most of my friends growing up were not Mormon. They drank, smoked and a few did drugs, but they always respected my beliefs and I respected theirs and we remained friends. That’s the way it should be.

    Comment by Jay — October 31, 2007 @ 4:36 pm |Reply

  123. Jay

    Good points, I think you are right on!

    Comment by steffielynn — October 31, 2007 @ 5:40 pm |Reply

  124. Steffie
    you say me and you believe differently ? I’m not so sure .I think the difference is who we percieve Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be .

    I don’t believe what they said and did was from God ? I don’t believe their were any Nephites or Lamenites or that Lehi left Jerusalem .I believe they are Fiction .

    You sound like a Christian and not Mormon to me 🙂 even though you would call yourself that.. Its a mystery to me .

    You seem to have some kind of strong belief in Jesus Christ and yet I don’t know how you include these men with it and the whole history of the church …

    This is the puzzle I have when I’m in church .Everything is ok until I hear these mens names quoted , then I’m reminded where I really am .

    I’ve given up defending the church’s history with my friends .

    I couldn’t live with it ……

    I would need a visit from Moroni ( if he’s real ) for a conversion .

    Comment by elder joseph — October 31, 2007 @ 8:08 pm |Reply

  125. That’s because I am Christian 🙂 And I believe in prophesy, that they were prophets!

    “I would need a visit from Moroni ( if he’s real ) for a conversion “……….

    Who know, maybe you’ll get one 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — October 31, 2007 @ 8:47 pm |Reply

  126. Elder Joseph,

    Consider this a visit.

    Comment by Moroni — October 31, 2007 @ 10:13 pm |Reply

  127. Steffie

    I’m glad you weren’t around in Joseph Smiths time or Brighgam Youngs and let them know you believed they were prophets .I would hate to think what kind of life you would have had 😦

    I know I would have been with William Law 🙂

    Moroni’s too scared to visit me anyway .He knows I know the real deal and that I wouldn’t believe him ! lol

    Comment by elder joseph — October 31, 2007 @ 10:21 pm |Reply

  128. I would have loved to meet brother Joseph – he was a fine man and love God and the people of God – So was brother Brigham – if fact all of the prophets and apostle of this age were and are so wonderful –

    I feel so blessed to be living now –

    Anyhow – my wife and I will be leaving on Friday morning for a 10 day cruises – so I will be off-line starting Friday –

    God speed to you all –

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 1:15 am |Reply

  129. Jay –

    You make some bery good point – thanks and hope to converse with you more when we get back –

    Keep the Faith!

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 1:18 am |Reply

  130. Happyman4
    ……What am I gonna do while your gone???? I’ll have to deal with EJ again!!!!! 🙂

    I hope you and your wife have a wonderful time! Relax, enjoy…. 🙂

    Moroni…..

    Thanks for stopping by!!!!!! See EJ, 🙂 …………..

    Comment by steffielynn — November 1, 2007 @ 3:34 am |Reply

  131. Comment by Moroni — November 1, 2007 @ 3:37 am |Reply

  132. wink

    Comment by Moroni — November 1, 2007 @ 3:37 am |Reply

  133. EJ

    Sorry to leave you alone for so long in here. I have been catching up. I do find it amazing that when you point out things actually published by the Church, Mainly JofD you actually get responses like

    “Let me just say, if things happened the way you claim they did, then yes I have a problem with it. ”

    The JofD was written with the intent of being MODERN DAY scripture! Why is it no LONGER studied in Church along with the candy coated church history????

    And yes as someone that has left the Church it is a Cult by definition.

    Happyman just never truly broke from the emotional hold simple as that!

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 5:01 am |Reply

  134. ConventryRM –

    Happyman just never lost faith in God – and was called back to the fold by the Shepherd. –

    It is strange that many people feel it a need to bash the beliefs of those that believe – and to apologize for leaving EL alone for so long – like he was in a pack of wolves that were ready to corrupt him –

    I read this is a FARMS review – http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=367&table=review
    The Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) must be striking a nerve in the anti-Mormon community. Yes, I mean the anti-Mormon community, not the non-Mormon community. There is a difference. A non-Mormon who writes about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not necessarily an anti-Mormon, even if he gets some of his facts wrong. To me, an anti-Mormon is one who deliberately misrepresents the facts about the LDS Church and its scriptures, either by outright falsehood or by faulty logic or by innuendo. While a few amateurs fit this category, many anti-Mormons make a living trying to “expose” Mormonism. Many of them have “ministries” to which Christians are asked to make donations to help stamp out what they represent to be blatant falsehood and chicanery. The irony is that these people typically fit the pattern they claim to be describing.
    I guess that you and EL wear the anti label – so with that why should a member of the Church take seriously anything that you say – your only goal is to destroy faith – and that is a very bad think- one that I would not want to answer for –
    All in all – peace and grace to both you and EL

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 9:51 am |Reply

  135. Steffielynn –

    I will keep you all in my prayers –

    I just bought the first volume of “Doctrinal Commentary on The Book of Mormon” by Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L Millet It covers 1st and 2nd Nephi – my wife and I plan on studying this a lot on the cruises –
    People tell me it’s an excellent commentary – one of the better ones out –

    I’ll let you know when we get back!!

    Moroni– welcome – please try and teach EL and ConventryRM the Plan of Happiness – as I don’t think that they are very happy

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 10:00 am |Reply

  136. I thought that before I left that I would leave this – as response to the JoD

    http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai161.html

    I especially like the Ensign article on the purpose of the JoD

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 10:41 am |Reply

  137. “Brad – I would never call myself that –
    so you think that Catholic aren’t saved either and anyone that has a different view of the world as you do isn’t saved either – You may claim the bible as your authority – but who’s translation? NIV – KJV – NAS – and who’s interpretation? Once saved always saved or you can be saved – lost and saved again – If the bread that Jesus used at the last supper really his body – of just figurative – and I suppose that Love that is preached in the gospel is only for those that believe in the same way you do – but where is your authority? Where is your churches authority? You didn’t get it from the Catholic that for sure….” (Happyman)

    HM, I don’t know about each specific Catholic, so I can’t speak as to their individual salvation. However, if we go strictly by the official doctrine of the Catholic church, then no, I don’t believe that anyone who adheres to that doctrine for their salvation has done what they should.

    Doesn’t matter which translation, HM, as long as the translations are based on the best available manuscripts, which the main ones (KJV, NKJV, NAS, NIV, etc…) are. This would exclude the NWT (JW Bible), as it has completely twisted what the original manuscripts said to serve its own purposes. I’m sure there are many other translations that aren’t technically correct, either.

    As to the interpretation, we need to adhere to the correct one. We can’t ALL be right, or truth is relative. It’s impossible. And the correct interpretations can be found with careful study of the Scriptures. Do I believe the Mormons interpret the Bible correctly? Absolutely not.

    Yes, I believe in “once saved, always saved”, to the extent the person was truly saved in the first place.

    I believe the bread and wine at the Last Supper was real food, but was symbolic of His body and blood – I don’t believe in transubstantiation, if that’s what you mean (that they actually BECOME His body and blood). It’s a ridiculous concept.

    Love is for everyone, HM – not just for a select few. However, the Bible does make it clear that those who believe have a special fellowship with others who believe, that they don’t have with those who don’t believe. And there are many who choose to not accept the love of Christ or the love of others, to their detriment.

    My authority, and my church’s authority, come from the same place – Scripture itself. There isn’t an organizational hierarchial that must exist to interpret things correctly, much as the Catholics and Mormons believe. It just elevates man to a position of importance that isn’t required. Does each religion need leaders? Yes. But those leaders aren’t the ONLY ones who can say what’s right and wrong. Anyone who can read and study Scripture can find that out.

    Comment by Brad — November 1, 2007 @ 4:10 pm |Reply

  138. Jay,

    I hope you find what you’re looking for. Just be willing to admit that it can be (and is) found outside the Mormon church. They rail and rail against all the “anti’s”, but they really do the same thing in reverse, almost like “anti-anti’s”, so what they say we do is in fact what they also do to combat it.

    You’ll find, if you look past all the “anti” fears they try to instill in you, that historically, what “anti’s” say took place actually DID take place, and you’ll see, if you look to the evidence of the Bible, that Mormonism truly is a false, man-made sham.

    Comment by Brad — November 1, 2007 @ 4:17 pm |Reply

  139. HM,

    You don’t even address any of EJ’s points, other than to say that “you know the church is true”, but you have NO BASIS for that, other than the “burning in the bosom”. What a scary thought. I personally don’t see how people can be so misled, but evidently it happens. Scary, really.

    Comment by Brad — November 1, 2007 @ 4:18 pm |Reply

  140. happyman

    Who is EL ! lol

    you said

    “I would have loved to meet brother Joseph – he was a fine man and love God and the people of God – So was brother Brigham – if fact all of the prophets and apostle of this age were and are so wonderful -”

    This has got to be the craziest words I’ve read yet .

    So you would have liked to live in their day …. You would have had to face the fact of

    1 Giving your wife to Joseph to marry , maybe while you were away on a mission so you might not even know about it .. what a wonderful surprise for you from Brother Joseph .

    2 try thinking of suicide if you came back and found out Joseph had propositioned your wife ..( Orson Pratt)

    3 Give your 14 year old daughter into marriage with 37 year old polygamist joseph for your exhaltation and hers and whoever else Joseph was kind enough to include …

    4 Lie to the public and fellow church members about polygamy because Joseph said so …. and send you out to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor …

    5 After Joseph is killed find that your wife then marries Brigham Young and concieves with him , meanwhile you are sent on a mission ! ( Henry Jacobs )

    6 Hear Brigham Young talking about sealing young girls to old men …. maybe you like this one depending which side of the coin you were at ? wink wink !

    7 Participate in Moutain Meadows …..

    Lets see how wonderful the apostles were

    Apostle Orson Pratt:
    “This law of MONOGAMY, or the MONOGAMIC SYSTEM, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans,…”
    (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, page 195)

    Apostle Orson Hyde:
    “I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that JESUS CHRIST WAS MARRIED at Cana of Galilee, THAT MARY, MARTHA, AND OTHERS WERE HIS WIVES, AND THAT HE BEGAT CHILDREN.
    (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 210)

    Brigham Young Threatens Hell to the women on resisting Plural Marriage
    Brother George A. Smith has been reading a little out of the revelation concerning celestial marriage, and I want to say to my sisters that if you lift you heels against this revelation, and say that you would obliterate it, and put it out of existence if you had the power to nullify and destroy it, I say that if you imbibe that spirit and feeling, you will go to hell, just as sure as you are living women………………………….You sisters may say that plural marriage is very hard for you to bear. It is no such thing.

    Speaking to a group of departing missionaries…

    “Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.”
    – Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

    and again…

    “I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen”
    – Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.

    Brigham young, during a conference talk in the Tabernacle, as recorded in the Journal of Discourses 7:282, states:

    “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. …………….and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood.

    Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did not the Lord kill him long ago? . . . He needed the devil and great many of those who do his bidding just to keep . . . our dependence upon God, . . . When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he [the devil] might be properly represented upon the earth (John Taylor, the third president of the LDS Church Journal of Discourses, vol. 23, p. 336).

    Future President of the Mormon church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
    “Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness HE BECAME THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE.” (The Way to Perfection, page 101)

    “There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).

    At least in the cases of the Lamanites {Native Americans} and the Negroes we have the definite Word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse – as a punishment and as a sign to all others.”
    (apostle Mark E. Petersen

    DID YOU READ THAT ! FROM APOSTLE MARK PETERSON WE HAVE THE DEFINATE WORD OF THE LORD ON THAT ! DARK SKIN IS A CURSE.

    and you say you would have loved to hear them and live in their day and be with them ..

    Maybe you can recommend they bring back the good old days then .

    E J Elder Joseph …… not EL ! 🙂 lol

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 4:31 pm |Reply

  141. Brad – I feel no need to address what is false – once again – you anti’s are so angry – so hurtful –

    I still will pray for you all –

    As fars as feelings – Can you prove that God exist at all – other than the “feelings”

    The Church is True – and while that upsets you – it’s your problem – not mine or any other believer –

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 4:34 pm |Reply

  142. EL –

    You make me laugh – you really do hate. Just try and accept people and love them regardless of what they believe – you claim that mormons force thier beliefs – what are you doing – Oh – it’s alright becasue you and the others know the truth –

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 4:37 pm |Reply

  143. CoventryRM,
    What is your definition of a cult?

    Brad,
    The once saved always save line on thought seem to be very convinient because if someone screws up you can always say they just weren’t saved to begin with.

    I am willing to admit that the “truth” may be found outside of the LDS Church, I just haven’t yet seen anything better or that makes more sense.

    I don’t really agree with you about the LDS church counteracting “anti-Mormons” with anti-anti attacks. As a life long, attending every Sunday, member I have never had a class in Church that talked about any specific religion and why it is wrong or evil. Unfortunately, these classes do exist in other churches (I’ve seen them). To me this is unchristian. The christian thing to do would be to love others even though they hold different beliefs and teach them true beliefs. This is one thing Mormons do right. In fact, mocking other beliefs is discouraged. I’m not saying that it never happens, but it is rare and usually done by a new member that doesn’t understand how to respect others beliefs.

    I have looked past the “anti” label. An anti-Mormon to me is someone who is angry or bitter and has as their sole objective to tare down the LDS faith no matter what. They are not interested in having rational conversations and they are easily offended. Rarely are they actually motivated by love of their fellow man, but rather by the desire to be right.

    I have seen many attempts at “proving” the LDS Church to be false by misquoting, distorting and just out of ignorance of history or LDS doctrine. I do understand that the LDS faith has many controversies. And I understand that many arguements that critics of the LDS Church make are based on facts, things that really happened, but I do find that they are many times so biased against the LDS faith that they refuse to accept alternate conclusions which are just as logical as theirs because they are approaching it with their mind made up already that it is false.

    I do have issues with specific parts of LDS history, where strong arguments can be made and LDS scholars are not able to provide a good defense. These issues are more the exception than the rule, but they do present significant room for doubt. This is why I have started to investigate more thoroughly the issues. I do not fault anyone for not believing in the LDS faith because I am aware that the LDS Church is not straight forward about all of its history. Once someone finds out what really happened (as in my case) you start to question why it’s never talked about in church and why the history we do know is only of faith promoting stories which lead you to idolize past members and leaders with very little of the human side. The problem is that every church I am familiar with does the same thing. The idealize their history so that their members will have no reason to doubt.

    Comment by Jay — November 1, 2007 @ 5:49 pm |Reply

  144. happyman

    Yes I hate those things Joseph Smith said and did .

    Yes I hate those things Brigham Young said about Blacks and women ..

    Don’t you ?

    Are you ok with it ?

    I think any decent person would actually hate those things that those early Prophets and Apostles said ..

    Why doesn’t the church say these things now if they are ok ?

    You said you would loved to have met Brother Joseph . That would have been interesting .Would you have given your wife to the prophet ?

    Why don’t you answer the question .Its simple either you would or you wouldn’t ?

    Or how would you react having come back from a mission and found your wife had maried the Prophet Joseph ?

    Either you would be angry or you would be happy ? Which one ?

    It seems to me that you believe Joseph Smith loved God so much that he obeyed him and married teen girls , proposed to married women and married 11 of them … proposed to 19 year old Nancy Rigdon which her Father Sidney Rigdon wasn’t happy about .. why not ? Didn’t he get revelation that it was ok ?

    We are not talking about faith in Christ here .. we are talking about the behaviour of men calling themselves to be prophets and subsequent events that ensued from it all , suposeldly all under the loving guidance of the Saviour ?

    I’ve asked my missionaries the same question .Most would have thumped or even killed the Prophet .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 7:11 pm |Reply

  145. Jay I think I would go with this one

    “Three ideas seem essential to the concept of a cult. One is thinking in terms of us versus them with total alienation from “them.” The second is the intense, though often subtle, indoctrination techniques used to recruit and hold members. The third is the charismatic cult leader. Cultism usually involves some sort of belief that outside the cult all is evil and threatening; inside the cult is the special path to salvation through the cult leader and his teachings.

    Of course, there is a positive side to cults. One gets love, a sense of belonging, of fulfilling a special purpose, of being protected, of being free from the evils of the world, of being on the path to eternal salvation, of having power. If the cult did not satisfy needs that life outside the cult failed to satisfy, cults would probably not exist. “

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 7:24 pm |Reply

  146. Guess Jesus stated a Cult – Gee – look at the Sermon on the mount –

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 7:31 pm |Reply

  147. I would have to give the Credit to Constatine!

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 7:36 pm |Reply

  148. You have a point:-)))))

    See ya all in 10 days –

    peace and grace to you all!!!! and love to.

    Comment by happyman4 — November 1, 2007 @ 7:37 pm |Reply

  149. EJ

    Makes great points presents factual Mormon history derived 100% from official Mormon sources yet you all argue with him but never about the actual question.

    I challenge all of you to actually sit down and make a list of all you have to reconcile and explain away to believe. Start first with the doctrine of the Garden of Eden being in Missouri. When you are done with your list. Ask yourself would you buy a car from this man.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 1, 2007 @ 7:46 pm |Reply

  150. Coventry RM

    I have read and I have looked into some of these things, many that I have looked into are taken out of context. I’m not interested in researching it any further. I don’t need to. Everything we explain is then explained away and we continue on this never ending circle. I would rather look towards the present and work on the future then dwell on the past! Especially since the only thing I can do is form an opinion based on two sides of a story.

    Like in school, we learn about a war, there are usually two sides, ours and theirs. We read our history books and we see one side, We read their history and it is COMPLETLY different. So who are we to believe? Us or them? Who was right and who was wrong?

    Take for instance the war we are in now. There are many sides to this story, when they write the history books will they go by fact alone? What are the facts? The Iraqis will certainly have their own side and their own facts. The media has played this war as evil and wrong, others feel it is right. So who is RIGHT???

    Comment by steffielynn — November 1, 2007 @ 9:00 pm |Reply

  151. steffie

    I can see two sides to a conflict of the war in Iraq and in many things in history …

    I can’t see two sides to Hitlers war on the Jews and his programme to obliterate them .

    Hitlers belief was dangerous and is not worthy of respect .

    He went unchallenged too long and ultimately he was challenged and he lost .

    His Philosophy was definately based on a tragic error of his thinking and yet he got everyone to think like him … through Group Think , manipulation and fear … Reward for loyalty , Threats for disloyalty..

    I believe the early Mormon leaders held these same characteristics of control and especially i can see this through the sermons of Brigham Young and J.O.D’s . Theres talk of being Godly and yet there is the talk of obedience . punishments , rewards etc …

    taking the wives of a less worthy man to give to a more worthy man seem to be practiced .. at least in the case of Henry Jacobs .. or maybe his wife was to blame because she went with Joseph Smith and then afterwards Brigham Young all for a higher exhaltation ….

    Its all a mindless nonsense to me .How does this resemble the New Testament Church ?

    One Mormon prophet or whoever said .Follow The Prophet even if he is wrong and you will be blessed .

    If you follow the Mormon prophet and he is wrong then you are the bigger idiot is my opinion.

    My Stake Patriarch even repeated that mantra to me .How ridiculous I told him .I’m not afraid of his priesthood authority . I know that if he tried to curse me with his priesthood power( thats what old testament prophets did to opposers and ridiculers ) it would not work .

    Hitler believed in White blue eyed Nordic healthy people Superiority over other races , over disabled people and over homosexuals .

    The Mormon Church believes similar ( ie WHITE SKIN) but in a Godly way ie Valiancy . Spencer Kimball even said that he noticed Indian Children placed with White Mormon families had become a few shades lighter than their parents back at the reservations in a General Conference talk . …

    The BofM has whites turning dark skinned for disobedience and abominations and turning white again later on for obedience and belief .Its scriptural and in LDS Canon .Maybe someone will alter it later on ? The Pearl Of Great Price has a mention of dark skin and priesthood curse etc .

    This is the Belief I am putting to the TEST !

    Do I want to believe this ? is what I ask myself …

    You either believe its true or an error , most Mormons daren’t say unless I have probed them until they burst !:)

    This is another reason I don’t get an answer of its truthfullness ..

    When I first came to church I had a great view on life . Now when I see black brothers and sisters I think of them as cursed in a black skin .Now when I see women and girls I think of them as tools for polygamy .Its awful and I need to clear my head of it all .

    I always wondered why we have different skin colour and why black nations didn’t develop to the same extent as white Europeans ? Mormon church teaches its because of Valiancy .. althiough they would rather we didn’t know.

    I prefer professor Jared Diamonds research on the matter. GUNS GERMS and STEEL ….

    Comment by elder joseph — November 1, 2007 @ 9:56 pm |Reply

  152. CoventryRM,
    The problem with the word cult is that some “Christians” want to throw it around at anyone they don’t agree with. I have even heard people call Catholics a cult! I don’t view Catholics as a cult anymore than I view Mormons as a cult. Mormon congregations aren’t oozing love all over new converts or members either. Many times I’ve had to force myself to go to church because no one would say a word to me for months (this was before I began questioning). To say that Mormons are a cult that makes everyone feel welcome is far from the truth. They are welcoming to new people just as any Church would be. I’ve attended other Churches and I see the same initial outpouring of interest from them that I see from LDS congregations.

    total alienation– Isn’t this what some “christians” are doing when they refuse to pray with a Mormon (I’ve had this happen) or let their children be associated with Mormon friends. The LDS Church encourages their members to be involved in the community and civil service, that hardly sounds like total alienation.

    subtle, indoctrination techniques– I think you would have a lot of people say that this applies to all religion.

    charismatic cult leader– I don’t really consider my Bishop, Stake President, Elder Scott or 99% of the other general authorities I’ve met charismatic by any stretch of the imagination. Most of the them talk in monotone voices that make you want to sleep. So if that is required for a cult then I’ll have to count the LDS religion out because Hinckely is probably the most charismatic they’ve had in a long time.

    outside the cult all is evil and threatening– What can I say, many of the Christians I have met here in Tennessee think that Mormonism, JWs and Catholics are evil and threatening, do they belong to a cult?

    Quite frankly your definition of cult could be applied to any religion or religious group. This is what I find with most people that choose to define cult, they stick the label on others, but fail to see that they fit the description themselves. It reminds me of Christ’s sermon about the beam in the eye.

    True conversion of others doesn’t come by insulting them, it comes by loving and teaching them with patience. That’s what you do when you really care about other.

    EJ,
    I agree that racist statements of the past made by LDS leaders are disgusting and horrible. I think these things were said out of ignorance (It makes no difference to me if it was a prophet or not). If you look at the commentator’s day I’m sure you will find that many of people held the same general views regardless of religious affiliation, however despicable they were. It took 100’s of years for this attitude to change to what it is now in the world, I don’t think a couple of more decades longer makes the LDS faith any worse. After all, the teachings were ingrained into the church that blacks were somehow less worthy. Why do you think that would change overnight?

    I also don’t think its fair to say that the LDS Church still teaches that Blacks were less valiant. The truth is that blacks have the same opportunities that whites do in the LDS Church today. Occasionally, older members will repeat some of the ignorant statements or theories of the past, but this is not because the Church is still teaching it. It is because they refuse to let go of the stories they were taught by misguided individuals despite the fact that the Church has repeatedly condemned such thoughts.

    The funny thing is that the actually history reveals that blacks always have had the priesthood, even during the ban (albeit only few). So it must not have been doctrine as some (B.Y. and others) claimed it was. I do wish the LDS Church would come out and specifically condemn the myths (i.e. less valiant in pre-existence, seed of Cain/Ham) because they have been repeated so many times by past leaders and members that some have come to believe these lies, mostly because they no nothing of their origin.

    Comment by Jay — November 1, 2007 @ 11:23 pm |Reply

  153. As for polygamy, I do think it is hard to rationalize how it was practiced by our founding leaders, but I don’t think polygamy is wrong. I have yet to meet someone who can explain in a logical way how Abraham, Jacob and other prophets of the Old Testament practiced polygamy and remained prophets. The most they have done is say that they were punished for the practice, but if that is the case, I’d like to know how they were punished and why God didn’t condemn the “evil” of polygamy. In fact the Old Testament says that God gave David his wives. So I find it hard to condemn early LDS leaders for practicing polygamy, but I do find some of the ways it was practiced disturbing.

    Comment by Jay — November 1, 2007 @ 11:48 pm |Reply

  154. Jay,

    I think the problem that EJ and others have with BY and other Prophet’s teachings regarding Blacks is that they should have known better if they truly had a conduit to the Father and Jesus.

    You say that you wish the church would come out and condemn the myths about blacks, etc…GBH did exactly that in general priesthood a few years ago. I heard it myself.

    Regarding polygamy, the problem that I have is not how to reconcile it being practiced and accepted in the OT if it was wrong in JS’s day. The problem I have is that it was never part of the church that Jesus set up, so how could there possibly have been a need to restore it. There was nothing to restore. This is proof to me that it was not of God.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 4:46 am |Reply

  155. Jay

    I agree all organized religions could be called cults.

    In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings (“scriptures”), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the “care” owed to the god and the shrine.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 5:11 am |Reply

  156. “I think the problem that EJ and others have with BY and other Prophet’s teachings regarding Blacks is that they should have known better if they truly had a conduit to the Father and Jesus.”

    I think this is a HUGE point that Mormons miss or explain away.

    One of The USP’s (Unique Selling Point) of the Church is that it has a Prophet that receives direct revelation from God. SO THEREFORE should be held to a higher standard that is consistent with this claim. When the reality turns out to be quite different they use the man is imperfect argument. I just don’t see how you can believe both ways and have any confidence in the current revelation or advice when history has shown that social conscience is decades ahead of the so called Prophets. Unless God actually was a racist himself and knows that his Church would fail on the earth if he continued teaching his racism.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 2:58 pm |Reply

  157. “I think the problem that EJ and others have with BY and other Prophet’s teachings regarding Blacks is that they should have known better if they truly had a conduit to the Father and Jesus.”

    Why should someone that is a prophet be free from personal bias or opinion? Is there no room for growth for prophets? Does becoming a prophet mean you loose your freedom to choose or think? Moses was a murderer, does that make him a false prophet?

    I do have a hard time understanding how a prophet can be a racist and still lead God’s church, but I also have to acknowledge that just because someone is called of God doesn’t mean they don’t have same rough edges that need smoothing. Racism was socially acceptable in the 19th century. I don’t think that God is racist simply because he allowed racism to exist, he simply allows people, even prophets, to make their own decisions.

    What I heard President Hinckley say was a general statement that anyone that held racist views was not worthy of the priesthood. He didn’t (to my recollection) mention any of the myths so common among church members even today. For some odd reason people don’t equate these myths with racism, which is probably the reason some members still repeat them. Rick, you know from my blog that they were repeated in my ward just two months ago. I talked to my Bishop and nothing was done. I later talked with the Stake President and nothing was done. Everyone just wants to ignore it and not correct it. The problem with this is that the person that said it continues to think they are right and will spread these lies to more people. It makes me so frustrated. That is why not just Hinckley, but all the GAs need to specifically condemn the myths not just make some general statement about being racist. Most members that still believe blacks were less valiant or are descendents of Cain don’t think they are racist for thinking it and will ignore general statements about being racist.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 3:29 pm |Reply

  158. Rick,
    Nothing in Jesus’ teachings contradict the practice of polygamy. If you believe, as many Christians do, that Jesus is God and that God never changes how can he allow his prophets to live polygamy ever if it is wrong? Especially since this is the same God that told them not to commit adultery. Why would he then givewives to David. The old and new testament are connected. You cannot separate them. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law, but morals didn’t change. Commandments didn’t change, he just gave a deeper understanding of the commandments, a higher way of living them (i.e. control your thoughts, love your neighbor). To say that it was its not mentioned in the New Testament but that its OK if it is in the Old Testament doesn’t make sense. So unless Christians are prepared to admit that the Bible contains flaws (which it does) or throw out the Old Testament, then you have to admit that God/Jesus was OK with polygamy.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 3:40 pm |Reply

  159. Jay

    So why have a Prophet if he can’t do any better than social conscience in fact historically social conscience has done much better. I fail to see how you can argue both sides either you have the word or God or the word of a Man. On one had you say it is the word of Man and another you say it is Gods word. So let me understand this, it is Gods word until we figure out it is wrong and immoral at that point it becomes Mans mistaken word. This is Logical Thinking?????????????

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 3:54 pm |Reply

  160. So was Moses a false prophet? Are the prophets false that commanded Israel to slaughter women and children? I think most would agree that killing is much worse than being a racist.

    The only reason people thought it was God’s word was because they were blinded by the influences around them and no one was voicing an opposing view. If you actually take the time to look at the history of blacks in the LDS Church it becomes clear that the ban was something BY made up because of his own bias against blacks. Joseph Smith was actually very progressive for his time. He was against slavery, was kind to black members and gave blacks the priesthood. LDS meeting houses were never segregated like many other Christian churches were.

    It wasn’t until BY that the ban appeared. After he died succeeding prophet were afraid to change it because they weren’t sure if it was from God or not. Social pressure didn’t start to rise until the 1950’s and that is when the LDS Church really started to take a good look at the ban again. It took another 30 years before it would change, although it came very close to changing in the late 60’s.

    The prophet alone does not make changes like this. The twelve vote on it. Unless it is unanimous the change will not take place. Thus, it only takes one of the Apostles to block the change. So one person that has racist feelings could prevent positive change from happening. This is exactly what happened in the LDS Church. There were disagreements among the Apostles on the ban even as far back as the late 19th century. Why did God allow it to happen? I don’t know, why does God allow pedophiles and murders to exist on the earth? Why does he allow innocent children to be abuse and murdered and starved? Why does he allow corruption among governments and churches that profess to know him? Is it logical to assume that a man that claims to talk with God has somehow reached the apex of perfection? Is it logical to think that God will correct his every mistake before he speaks or thinks? No, it is not logical.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 4:24 pm |Reply

  161. Again then what is the point of following a Prophet then?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 4:26 pm |Reply

  162. you are making a great argument for the saying “Only religion can make good people do Bad things”

    “Why did God allow it to happen? I don’t know, why does God allow pedophiles and murders to exist on the earth? Why does he allow innocent children to be abuse and murdered and starved? ”

    So I guess you are agreeing social consience works much better than prophecy and dillusional thinking.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 4:32 pm |Reply

  163. “Only religion can make good people do Bad things”

    Religion can make people do bad things no one can argue against that, but it is not only extremely pious people that do bad things. I believe it is a few people’s misinterpretation of their religion that causes them to commit horrible acts, not God.

    How can social conscience be better when these things still exist despite everyone knowing they are wrong? I think that sometimes God telling us to do something (i.e. love your neighbor) is not enough to change the hearts of people. Like an obstinate teenager that refuses to listen to their parents and insists on doing what they have been forbidden to do, we sometimes learn not by being told, but by living wrong and learning from it. I think this is what happened with priesthood ban in the LDS Church.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 4:46 pm |Reply

  164. Jay

    you said

    “Is it logical to assume that a man that claims to talk with God has somehow reached the apex of perfection? ”

    Now I have my answer about Moses thats plagued me ,he was simply wrong to slay the camp of israel 😦 it was a mistaken human reaction …… Now I can approach the Old Testament in a new way and without all the anger I had about it before, see it from a human’s experience of searching for God even though at times I suspect some of it may be a load of nomadic campsite tales …

    It seems to me that I can’t trust people claiming to be prophets anymore than trusting any other person with good intent ..

    I’ll do what I’ve always done in life , take all the information around me and available and then make my own informed decisions …

    Any chance of you becoming an Apostle ? You could make the changes necessary to make the church more attractive to people like myself 🙂

    I believe B H Roberts was correct .He said that the future youth of the church will be confronted with the BofM archeology and other problems and they are . My missionaries are experiencing many investigators with access to the Internet . Amongst these missionaries are the future GA’s which will make the right changes ( through revelation of course ) 🙂

    Polygamy will have to go as well though ! 🙂

    I emailed you something about one of the BofM changes in 1981 .. from white to pure ..

    CoventryRM

    ‘Social Conscience ‘ .. didn’t Vatican 2 write a paper on that ? or something ….. lol

    Comment by elder joseph — November 2, 2007 @ 5:27 pm |Reply

  165. Jay,

    Banning blacks from the saving ordinances needed for exaltation is HUGE !!!

    This was a BLATANT mistake.
    No prophet worth his salt would allow this to happen.
    GOD would not let this happen to his one true church.

    And yet, all “Prophets” from BY up to SWK did nothing. Received nothing from God. Even SWK did not state that he received revelation. He simply made a declaration of change.

    I also have a problem with 1 Apostle having a veto vote.
    If GBH has a true visit from God where he is told that all worthy members are to give up eating meat, and 1 Apostle does not believe this, but thinks it was just a dream (or whatever reason), it does not pass.

    That makes no sense to me.

    You also know from your blog, that I don’t give any credence to the OT. Filled with too much nonsense. God did not command anyone to murder innocent children, have sex with your daughters or inlaws, or to marry multiple women or have sex with whores (concubines) so you can have a son (no one cares about daughters in the bible).

    Even IF (and that’s a big if) the polygamy nonsense was valid in the OT, no where in the OT is it stated that polygamy was for allowing women to gain exaltation they could not get otherwise, nor is it ever mentioned that it is ok to jump from man to man in polygamous marriages to get further up the celestial ladder, nor is it ever mentioned that it is ok to marry another man’s wife under any circumstances other than the death of said man.

    Please convince me how any aspect of polygamy, as practiced by the early church, in any way resembles how it was practiced anywhere in the bible.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 6:48 pm |Reply

  166. Rick,
    I will not attempt to justify the way polygamy was practiced by Joseph Smith and other early LDS prophets. Personally, I find some of it disturbing. I do think God approved of polygamy in the OT. Whether or not it was practiced the same way by the 19th century LDS Church or not is unclear because there are not a whole lot of details in the bible. The one thing that is clear is that God does not condemn it. If polygamy was such a huge sin, He would have stepped in. I just cannot accept that God would have said and done nothing.

    I know you don’t believe in the OT. Nonetheless, the OT is the foundation for the NT. If you throw out the OT you are throwing out what Jesus based his own teachings on. Time and time again he uses the OT to teach the Jews. He clarifies what it means to love your neighbor, to commit adultery, to break the Sabbath, etc. It’s all in the OT. How can we possibly throw it out because of a few errors? It does make things more confusing, but that’s just something people have to accept if they believe in the bible. I just feel bad for people that believe in a literal translation. They get into all kinds of trouble trying to explain things away.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 7:49 pm |Reply

  167. Jay

    Carrying the tolerance conversation over to here (What do you believe) because I just noticed something you said in here that agrees with a statment I made over there.(Baffled)

    Jay said in here – – “I just feel bad for people that believe in a literal translation. ”

    CoventryRM said over there –

    “So that leaves room for those like yourself that most likely deep down know that all of this should be taken more Allegorically than Literally”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 9:02 pm |Reply

  168. Jay,

    I understand your stance that God doesn’t condemn polygamy anywhere in the Bible. You are definitely correct there. The statement that God would have stepped in if it was so bad though doesn’t quite work. There is precedence for God not stepping in…blacks and the priesthood. The LDS never received revelation on this matter. It was merely a topic that was up for vote on several occasions, and eventually passed under SWK’s watch…no doubt because of social pressure and the possible threat of losing tax exempt status.

    I also get your point on not being able to throw out the OT with doing severe damage to the NT. I struggle with this one myself. It leads me to believe that religion in general is man-made, including Christianity. Though I am not quite ready to make that statement, there is overwhelming evidence supporting it.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 10:01 pm |Reply

  169. Bishop Rick

    BINGO!

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 10:08 pm |Reply

  170. Bishop Rick

    Have you done much reading outside of things pertaining to religion and mormonism in general? Such as Jared Diamonds – Guns, Germs and Steel that both EJ and I have mentioned in here?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 10:10 pm |Reply

  171. I haven’t. All my research had pertained to Mormonism and Christianity.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 10:17 pm |Reply

  172. email me at ski_pwdr@hotmail.com I have some good suggestions if you like. Plus take some converstation off of here.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 10:34 pm |Reply

  173. Rick,
    The difference between polygamy and the priesthood ban is that there is biblical support for polygamy. There is absolutely no biblical or any other LDS scriptural support for the priesthood ban. A few passages in LDS scripture may be considered racist by critics, but they do not ban blacks from having the priesthood.

    The reason it was discussed so vigorously after BY was because he made such strong statements about it, as if it were revelation. I find some comfort in knowing that there were some progressive LDS Apostles that thought it should be done away with and fought for it to be. My opinion is that later prophets were hesitant to reverse the ban unless they had a very good reason (as if it being racist wasn’t enough) because they feared it was revelation and since many people didn’t care if the ban was in place or not they felt little pressure to make any change. That all turned around with the civil rights movement.

    Coventry,
    Yes, I don’t think the bible or any scripture Christian or not should be taken literally. That is where people get pushed to extremes. Like saying the earth is only 4,000 years old or that, in the case of Mormonism, the American indians are decendents of Lehi.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 10:43 pm |Reply

  174. So you really are not a TBM then

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 10:49 pm |Reply

  175. I just love speeches like this, this is a quote from Orson Pratt, JD 1:58, it’s about where the intelligent spirits are being sent:

    “The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations that dwell upon the face of this earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being; His justice, goodness, and mercy will be magnified towards those who were chosen before they were born; and they long to come, and they will come among the Saints of the living God; this would be their highest pleasure and joy, to know that they could have the privilege of being born of such noble parentage.”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 10:51 pm |Reply

  176. I was looking for this Orson Pratt quote

    It’s there on page 63 ..

    I find the whole talk disgusting , Its full of self righteousness and sheer arrogance …and typical of these tyrants .

    and its totally ridiculous … If spirit children were awaiting bodies and mormons were commanded to create great bodies for them and not vile bodies as through blacks , hindoos and other nations .. Why did blacks , hindoos and other nations still manage to have children ?

    to call himself an Apostle strains all credibilty and an insult to our biblical apostles ..

    Now I know where we get the term Silly Pratt from in out country !

    Comment by elder joseph — November 3, 2007 @ 1:22 pm |Reply

  177. Are you talking about the book, a Marvelous work and a wonder?????

    Comment by steffielynn — November 3, 2007 @ 1:52 pm |Reply

  178. ConventryRM,
    I am not a TBM. Two years ago I would have considered myself as such, but today I know much more about LDS history and do not accept many of the things that a TBM would. I am much more sceptical now and take statements from LDS general conference with a grain of salt. I do think that the leader give good advice that can help people live good lives, but I don’t take every word as God’s command anymore.

    Comment by Jay — November 3, 2007 @ 2:49 pm |Reply

  179. steffie

    we are talking Journal Of Discourses …..

    The spoken words of The Lords suposed chosen Prophets and Apostles ….
    Its sold at deseret and available online

    http://www.jhuston.com/jod.htm

    These are what stopped my Mormon Progression in its tracks over a year ago ..

    The JW leaders would have suppressed this stuff and destroyed it if it was their Leaders and Publications . At least the LDS church keeps them available albeit hoping no one ever notices whats in .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 3, 2007 @ 3:32 pm |Reply

  180. Didn’t also in that above speech pretty much say that Humans have only been on the earth 6000 years? So dumb spirits are also to explain for the dark ages I suppose. Since GOD is saving all the smart ones like us to be born in these last days to white Mormon families. I was a genius in the pre-existence. Oh wait sorry now it can also be Mormon families of any color.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 3, 2007 @ 3:45 pm |Reply

  181. I like this advice as well.

    We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.”(0/0/59) (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.303)

    If you read the whole article it isn’t so bad I guess but it does sound like they don’t believe in soul mates. Since they advice that if you think you are in love with someone from a much different background from you that you should rethink in a more more mature way. All very interesting.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 3, 2007 @ 4:10 pm |Reply

  182. CoventryRM

    From what I’ve read in Journal Of Discourses I can say that I am absolutely shocked at the mindless drivvle and blatant madness in some of the talks .

    Some of things said are absolutely the most self righteous bigotry I’ve ever come across and absolute Narcissism .

    I’ve never felt so good about myself and my conscience before God since after reading their nonsenses .

    Take Brigham Young and his views on slavery .Approx 50 years prior here in Engalnd we had William Wilberforce fighting hard through Law to make slavery illegal and a scourge of the past , yet in the USA we have a so called prophet Of God some 50 years on saying its a divine institution and not to be abolished ……..absolutely stunning . And even worse things were said throughout by most of these including ‘Apostle’ Mark Peterson in 1954….

    This is one of my stumbling blocks to Mormon baptism . As far as I can see these mens teachings are still believed by church members ( as Jay says the older ones at least ) .My American missionaries taught me that Negroes were less valiant spirits ….

    Until The Church Apostles actually say something and not ignore it believing in their own excuse of ‘its not important for our salvation ‘ it will never be clear exactly whats what in this religion …. afterall a ban on Blacks in The Temple is a big thing .

    Their own in ingrained Arrogance will never admit error …..

    Comment by elder joseph — November 3, 2007 @ 11:30 pm |Reply

  183. Wow, Steffie, I never expected 187 comments to result from this post!

    Jay, your take on the priesthood ban seems to be identical to my own. (My own take, that is, not my own priesthood ban.) Had I been a member of the church in 1978, I would have raised my hand in opposition to the Official Declaration and publicly called for the revelation to be read in the ears of the saints, before we accepted it. If they claimed it was not a written revelation, but an inspiration received from the Lord, I would have called for them to go back to the Lord and have him write it down so that we could look over the revelation. Then, once the revelation was before our eyes, I would have considered sustaining it. The fact that a claim to revelation was received, but no revelation was read, is a red flag to me. However, I wasn’t a member in that year and I guess most members didn’t give a hoot about the need to read the revelation themselves, so it passed easily.

    CoventryRM and elder joseph, I don’t know why you harp on about the Journal of Discourses. Anyone in this church or in any other church can have whatever belief they want to have, and preach it from the pulpit, too. None of it is binding upon the saints, nor official doctrine. Only the canonized works is our doctrine and what we are bound by. The First Presidency can officially interpret those canonized works, however they see fit, but only they can, as they hold the keys. A prophet or apostle, acting alone or with others, outside of that First Presidency is merely giving his opinion, except when citing the standard works. In fact, what I often do is take the GC addresses in the Ensign, go through the whole thing, mark all the scriptures quoted and just read that, as everything is their interpretative opinion!

    It is the people who determine what is canonized and therefore binding upon them. Only the people. The prophets control the priesthood and the ordinances, who performs them, who receives them, and they hold the responsibility for any mistakes they make in that area. But the people hold the reign of power concerning canon and what is binding upon us. That is why if they want a king and the prophet says no, they get a king anyway.

    So, I think it might be better for you to focus your energies where it really counts, namely on the official doctrines of the church, because if you approach a LDS who understands what is and is not official doctrine, and bring up your beef with the JoDs, they’ll just say, so what? That is 19th century thought, 19th century opinion talking. There may be truths in there, there may be errors in there. It’s up to you to discern one from the other. Move on to the meat, the standard works and the First Presidency Statement of interpretation.

    Lastly, even the counsel that the brethren offer us today, if it is above and beyond the scriptures, it ain’t binding upon the saints, unless we vote to be bound by it. So, although LDS are pretty much mindless robots and all, and the leaders do contribute to this state of mindlessness through the “follow the brethren” mantra, the Lord always gives his people what they want. If they want a king, they get it. If they want tyrants to rule over them, they get it. If they want to be commanded in all things, they get it. The people ultimately are to blame.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 1:54 am |Reply

  184. Sorry, I can’t count. 183, now 184 posts! (Not 187.)

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 1:55 am |Reply

  185. LDS Anarchist

    I didn’t expect it either! Maybe we’ll hit 200!!!

    Thanks for your comments, you are obviously very knowledgeable in this area and I appreciate your input!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 4, 2007 @ 2:16 am |Reply

  186. The Church claims its truthfulness on both having revelation from God and the restoration by these Men. To dismiss what was written and taught by these men is both ignorant and contradictory. Official doctrine well I mentioned that official doctrine states that the first Human and the garden of Eden were in North America, Missouri I think, That we know is impossible so, the creation in P of G can’t be possible either. The problem with focusing on Doctrine it doesn’t seem the Church itself can really decide what that is. Or when it does get proven wrong or impossible they just change it. Very convenient.

    It is ridicoulus to claim living Prophets and revelation but yet not be willing to call what they teach or say valid when at a later time is shown to be immoral or just plain stupid.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 5:31 am |Reply

  187. There really hasn’t been any prophesying or revelation since Joseph Smith. Other than a vision by JFS of preaching the gospel to the dead, and a few declarations (polygamy, blacks and priesthood) there has been nothing. Makes me scratch my head.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 4, 2007 @ 6:58 am |Reply

  188. LDS Antichrist

    You said

    “CoventryRM and elder joseph, I don’t know why you harp on about the Journal of Discourses. …….. None of it is binding upon the saints, nor official doctrine.”

    It was binding upon them at the time .How can you say that ? Look at all the arranged polygamous marriages that was binding on them . Those women didn’t agree with it .The JOD’s are full of threats against them.

    Why did Brigham Young bind arranged marriages upon the young females of the church and threaten hell to them over it ?

    Where is it canonised that he can do this ?

    Where did he get the Priesthood Ban from then and where is that canonised ? And how come it went unnoticed for so long by living Prophets and Apostles ?

    What is the point of a living prophet if what he says is wrong .

    When the young girls and women at that time were discerning that Polygamy wasn’t right , why did he terrorise them with Gods wrath if God had nothing to do with it as it wasn’t canonised in that way ?

    Why doesn’t Gordon Hinckley read a seer stone in a hat while we are at it ?

    You said

    “That is 19th century thought, 19th century opinion talking. There may be truths in there, there may be errors in there. ”

    The biggest and most obnoxious opinion in there is that they were claiming to be apostles and followers of Jesus Christ .

    They were nothing but a disgrace and a menace to society and especially women …..

    Old men conceiving with frightened young girls in the name of God having threatened them with hell and Gods wrath and a loss of being with heavenly father is nothing more than psychological rape .

    Did our own Heavenly Father do the same when he was on an earth , did he scare and threaten young girls into his polygamous compound ?

    Is this the Gospel ? Then I don’t want to be in that CK .

    How on Earth did a simple Gospel of Salvation 2000 years ago where Christians were persecuted for it become a springboard for dictatorships , arrogance , forced polygamy , and absolute false opinionated teachings ?

    Brigham Young taught that Adam was God all his life and that God revealed it to him ….. he taught that JOD’s were scripture .He never went back and corrected anything from what was printed .He effectively canonised it as prophet of God.

    Was he right or not ? Is he a prophet or not ? If he isn’t a prophet , where does that leave the church ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 11:12 am |Reply

  189. Now, now, EJ, there’s no need to call names. I am pro-Christ, not anti-Christ.

    “It was binding upon them at the time .How can you say that?” Because it wasn’t binding.

    “Why did Brigham Young bind arranged marriages upon the young females of the church and threaten hell to them over it?”

    I can’t speak for Brigham, neither can you. But just because someone threatens you with hell and damnation, doesn’t mean you have to do it. I’ve been threatened plenty of times, by bishops even, but unless something is scriptural, their is no bind and they are just empty threats.

    “Where is it canonised that he can do this?”

    I don’t know that there is anything canonized authorizing threats, but if they had a problem with the counsel at the time, and thought that they stepped over their bounds, that is what church courts are for. To settle disagreements, adjudication, etc.

    “Where did he get the Priesthood Ban from then and where is that canonised?”

    The Presidents of the church hold the keys of the priesthood, so, if they decide that only those with a fifth or more of Cherokee blood can hold it, guess what? Only 5th or more Cherokee blooded people will get it. We, the people, have no keys over the priesthood, They do. If they screw up, the Lord will hold them accountable. As long as I or anyone else follows the Lord, we won’t lose my eternal reward, regardless of the rules of priesthood.

    “And how come it went unnoticed for so long by living Prophets and Apostles?” I don’t know. Write a letter to Pres. Hinckley and ask him. The church has the power to hold the leadership accountable and demand certain things, like what certain policies are based on, what revelation, etc. The people of the church didn’t do that and don’t care to do it today. They believe today in following their leaders. Period.

    “What is the point of a living prophet if what he says is wrong?” I ask you, what is the point in having the Holy Ghost if a prophet is going to be right in everything he says? If a prophet speaks 100% of the truth all of the time and commands in all things, we can do away with the need for the Holy Ghost “manifesting the truth of all things.”

    “Why doesn’t Gordon Hinckley read a seer stone in a hat while we are at it?” Maybe he does. The real question is, why don’t all the members of the church have seer stones or Urim and Thummims? We are as entitled to receive revelation in that way as anyone else, if we have sufficient faith.

    “The biggest and most obnoxious opinion in there is that they were claiming to be apostles and followers of Jesus Christ .” I claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Does that mean everything I say or every belief I have is going to be 100% accurate? You don’t consider me infallibe. Why them?

    “They were nothing but a disgrace and a menace to society and especially women …..” I know that that is your opinion, but the people living at the time under their administration did not think so. They followed those men and their teachings and thought highly of them. Some of course, did not think highly of them. You are of this vein. The thing is, as will all of history, we can never get all of the facts. Everyone who speaks speaks with a bias and a perspective, different from everyone else. Thus, there are people who adore me as a follower of Christ and there are people who hate me and who call me an antichrist. Can I be both? Sure. It is all according to your perspective. What is the real truth? Only God knows, as He knows all of the facts.

    Today it is hard enough to get an accurate picture of the personality of a living person, based upon the available information. People are greatly diverse and complicated, more so than we like to think. So, if it is difficult to come to an accurate understand of what a person believes, thinks and of the motives of their actions when they are living, do you think it will be possible to do so on a dead person, dead more than a hundred years back?

    The information we have on Brigham or anyone else is filtered through perception, which is inherently biased. Harping on the 19th century leadership and the JoDs, which isn’t canonical, regardless of what anyone says or said back then, is like spinning a stationary wheel. It goes nowhere.

    There are beliefs of many, many members that GC addresses are scripture and they hang on those words, but so what? Everyone is entitled to their own belief. It doesn’t make it doctrinal. So, stick to the Standard Works and the First Presidency interpretative statements.

    Lastly, you said, “Is this the Gospel ? Then I don’t want to be in that CK.” You won’t. Ultimately, we all will get the heaven we desire to live in. The Lord gives us what we will receive and no more.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 9:58 pm |Reply

  190. 1. “What is the point of a living prophet if what he says is wrong?” I ask you, what is the point in having the Holy Ghost if a prophet is going to be right in everything he says? If a prophet speaks 100% of the truth all of the time and commands in all things, we can do away with the need for the Holy Ghost “manifesting the truth of all things.”

    I just pick this one argument of yours to point out how you spin and take things and put them into contexts that are not only ridiculous but downright laughable.

    Members are not allowed to use the HG to override or dismiss the wrong teachings of the prophets, Otherwise there would be TOTAL ANARCHY oh wait hence your name! You know as well I as I do that the Church official position is that your personal access to the Holy Ghost is just for you and your family to help decide stupid stuff like should we move to this city or should we let Billy play at Bobbies or not. NEVER to be used to correct a Prophet or Apostle. You have taken two things completely out of context of ACTUAL church teachings to make your point.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 10:20 pm |Reply

  191. LDS Anarchist

    “The information we have on Brigham or anyone else is filtered through perception, which is inherently biased. Harping on the 19th century leadership and the JoDs, which isn’t canonical, regardless of what anyone says or said back then, is like spinning a stationary wheel. It goes nowhere.”

    Journal of Discourses”(vol 13, page 95):

    Brigham Young

    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture”

    The Prophet himself said it was scripture .

    Comment by Elder Jo — November 4, 2007 @ 10:27 pm |Reply

  192. It is not the Holy Ghost that overrides a prophet, but the law of common consent. Everything that is done in the church must be approved by the members. If they don’t approve it, it doesn’t happen. Just because the practice of sustaining has become nothing more than a rubberstamp in the church, as the LDS approve of everything announced without a moment’s thought, doesn’t mean the the people don’t have the power to nullify any calling in the church (if they ever choose to use that power.) A prophet cannot canonize anything, only the people can. A leader can call anyone to any position, but he can’t put him in that position unless the majority vote him in. If the majority vote no, then sorry, there’s “sureness” to the calling. It doesn’t go through. It is a duality: calling AND election. They, the priesthood do the calling, hopefully under the guidance of the Holy Ghost and we, the people, do the electing, hopefully under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

    I’m not putting spin on this, as it is a doctrinal principle. The voice of the people decide EVERYTHING. This is why Nephi, when asked to be a king, said it would be bad, but since the people wanted it, he became a king. This is why Mosiah said, “do your business by the voice of the people.” This is why the Bro. of Jared said, “no kings” but since the people wanted one, they got one. And Samuel, counseling the people to remain an anarchy and not to have a king, but the people still wanting one, they got one.

    The kingdom of God consists of checks and balances. We check their wickedness via our access to the scriptures and Holy Ghost and the law of common consent, they check our wickedness via control over the ordinances, the scriptures and Holy Ghost hopefully guiding them. If anyone goes beyond the bounds of the written law, the scriptures, it is up to the members and leadership to provide a check. If no one checks, then tyranny results.

    So, no, I’ve taken nothing out of context. This is how it is designed to work and this is how and why we get what we want. This is why even in the pre-existence, we got to vote. The voice of the people decides ALL issues. In fact, even over the priesthood ban, had the people wanted it gotten rid of, had they organized a vote and voted it gone, it would have been gone, regardless of the keys of the priesthood. The law of common consent is a fundamental principle of the gospel.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 11:32 pm |Reply

  193. I meant to write, “there’s no sureness,” not “there’s sureness.” Just a typo…

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 11:33 pm |Reply

  194. Am I blocked just like EJ

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 11:35 pm |Reply

  195. So why didn’t anyone check or balance racism?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 11:40 pm |Reply

  196. One more comment, so that you understand this principle, that it is scriptural:

    “For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead. ” (D&C 64: 38-40)

    No leader likes this scriptures, as it shows plainly who are the judges of the leaders, and where the real power lies.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 11:42 pm |Reply

  197. #194 – CoventryRM, you asked, “So why didn’t anyone check or balance racism?” I don’t know the answer to that question. The 19th century was racist. Virtually everyone was. Maybe they didn’t want to make waves, maybe because of the persecution of the U.S. government, it was thought it would be better to stand behind the leaders, no matter what they said, than to take a stand according to principles. Who knows what they were thinking? And who cares? They did what they did, leaders and members alike, and now those people are in the next life and will be judged according to the canonized scriptures which they possessed. The real problem doesn’t lie in the past, but the present, as the same mentality of blindly following leaders is now an entrenched Mormon culture, which culture naturally breeds tyranny. But the laws of the kingdom are still written and still apply, if anyone cares to enact them.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 4, 2007 @ 11:48 pm |Reply

  198. lds anarchist
    you said

    “For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.”

    So how have the LDS apostles lasted so long then ?

    Brigham Young
    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses 13:95).

    You called his whole 26 years of talks non canonical …. was he lying then ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 11:54 pm |Reply

  199. lds anarchist
    you said

    “For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.”

    So how have the LDS apostles lasted so long then ?

    Brigham Young
    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses 13:95).

    You called his whole 26 years of talks non canonical …. was he lying then ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 11:57 pm |Reply

  200. HEY
    No one has been blocked!!!!!! I don’t know why EJ’s comment was sent trough moderation, I just got home and approved it!

    Don’t be paranoid! 🙂

    Also this is comment 200, how exciting 🙂

    I have nothing to add to this conversation, because You guys have gone over my head 🙂

    LDS Anachist, thanks for going back and forth with these guys!!!!! 🙂

    Wow, that’s lots of smiley faces….

    Comment by steffielynn — November 5, 2007 @ 1:12 am |Reply

  201. “So how have the LDS apostles lasted so long then?”

    When it comes to their leaders, the people seem to be applying, “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” Everyone gives their leaders the benefit of the doubt. The prophecy I quoted is one of futurity: “it shall come to pass,” “shall be proved,” and “shall be known.” The inhabitants of Zion are the sanctified, those who have received the Spirit and have taken it for their guide, thus it will be the Spirit that is manifesting the truth of all things, both within and without the church. The church is not yet sanctified, though there are individual people among the general church who are sanctified. The sanctified can be recognized by the gifts, power and fruits of the Spirit that attend them. When was the last time you heard a LDS speak in tongues in a meeting and another LDS stand up and interpret? We are living in a time in which the best gifts are largely absent from the church.

    But times will change. The state of the church will not for long remain as it is, in its unsanctified state. Nevertheless, first must come the prophesied housecleaning:

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; first among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.” (D&C 112: 23-26)

    We can clean house ourselves, or, if we shirk that duty, the Lord will do it for us. Either way, it’ll get done and the remaining Latter-day Saints will finally be, in actuality, saints, that is, sanctified people.

    Brigham Young obviously believed that all his sermons were inspired of the Holy Ghost and thus scripture. Some of them may have been. Others may not have been. It was up to his listeners to decide. Surely, some or many people must have believed his sermons were scripture, as that is the tendency of the LDS, but just because something is scripture, doesn’t make it binding upon the general membership. It must be accepted by the people as binding and canonized. Otherwise, all of the personal revelations I have received would be binding, too, if I got up in a meeting and read them in from of the people. Just because I believe them to be scripture, doesn’t bind anyone else to believe them to be scripture, or to need to obey them. (And I’m not referring to jurisdictional revelation, which so many use to indicate what can or cannot be considered scriptural canon.) So, there is an order to the kingdom.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 5, 2007 @ 3:02 am |Reply

  202. “in front of the people,” not “in from of the people.” More typos…

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 5, 2007 @ 3:06 am |Reply

  203. Anarchist,

    Your interpretation of “order in the kingdom” is a bit naive. First, it only takes a majority vote for something to become binding, and since the church is the world’s greatest example of group speak, a 51% majority could easily be a false majority. I still remember instances where there where actually people that voted against the sustaining of the GAs during General Conference. Their concerns were noted then summarily dismissed.

    Second, you question the need for the Holy Ghost if the prophets and apostles always spoke 100% truth. You are inferring a state where people only interact with and speak with prophets and apostles.

    Your arguments just don’t work in the real world.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 5, 2007 @ 6:49 am |Reply

  204. Nor are they even close to how the Church operates or has ever operated.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 6:54 am |Reply

  205. Bishop Rick

    What time zone are you in – Just gettiing up, staying up late?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 7:06 am |Reply

  206. I am not saying that the church operates this way or even that it ever operated this way, only that it is designed to operate this way. See the following post for an article on this topic:

    http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/is-our-procedure-for-sustaining-a-rubber-stamp/

    As for the Holy Ghost, I’m saying that every six months, when the General Authorities speak, they could merely detail all the error in the world, all the things we could trust (the true things) and micromanage every aspect of our lives and we could go home, receive the Conference Reports and obey it without another thought. In such a situation, there would be no need for the Holy Ghost manifesting to us the truthfulness of all things, as the GAs would do that for us. The fact, though, that it is the Holy Ghost’s mission to discern the truth of ALL THINGS, means that all things need to be analyzed, INCLUDING THINGS IN THE CHURCH. So, we don’t blindly open our minds and swallow all things from the church as a pill. Instead, we hear it, use the Berean principle and the Holy Ghost to determine what parts are true, what parts are error and what parts are opinion. The responsibility is on the individual members to do this for all things, within or without the church. At the last day, we can’t simply say, “But my bishop told me to do it” to the Lord and think to enter into his rest. Following orders doesn’t cut it. The spirits who followed Lucifer were probably also following orders, those of Lucifer, who was an angel in authority, and possibly their direct line of priesthood authority.

    Comment by LDS Anarchist — November 5, 2007 @ 7:58 am |Reply

  207. EJ,
    You said: Now I have my answer about Moses thats plagued me ,he was simply wrong to slay the camp of israel 😦 it was a mistaken human reaction …… Now I can approach the Old Testament in a new way and without all the anger I had about it before, see it from a human’s experience of searching for God …”

    This is exactly how many LDS members that know about LDS history and still choose to stay view some of the more crazy things that happened. Yes it still bugs them, but they come to the conclusion that a prophet can be human too and make mistakes, even big ones like denying thousands of people the priesthood and temple ordinances.

    What really irritates me is when members try to excuse what happened by repeating stories to justify it. I would really like to hear something along these lines “Brigham Young had some racist feelings which were prevalent at the time, both in and out of religion. The ban was an extension of Brigham Young’s thoughts not a revelation from God.” But we will never hear this kind of statement from Church leaders because everyone is so afraid to “speak evil” of past leaders that any wrong done by them can never be spoken of. If prophets are imperfect men and that’s ok, then why do we have to ignore their imperfections. Personally, it makes me feel better because if a prophet of God can make those type of mistakes I still have a chance.

    LDS Anarchist,

    You said: However, I wasn’t a member in that year and I guess most members didn’t give a hoot about the need to read the revelation themselves, so it passed easily.

    I think most members at the time didn’t care if it was revelation or not. They knew it was wrong, but went along with it because that’s what the church had set as the standard. LDS leaders and members even made up their own stories to make themselves feel better about denying blacks the priesthood and temple ordinances. When the announcement was made that blacks would now receive the priesthood most members were wondering why it took so long.

    So in this case I don’t think the members were so much following sheep as they were just anxious to see the change made by someone that had the authority (i.e. the prophet) so that they could breath a sigh of relief. I can only imagine what it was like trying to explain to a black friend why they couldn’t get the priesthood.

    Comment by Jay — November 6, 2007 @ 2:09 pm |Reply

  208. This really makes me scratch my head. Every prophet from BY up to SWK sanctioned this vile practice. How is it that A: BY got this notion to begin with? and B: that no one during that span of time ever got a revelation to change it?

    The answer is very simple to me.

    None of them were prophets and as such, none were capable of revelation.

    This is a very simple answer to explain this behavior. I’m sure that apologists have concocted numerous complicated “possibilities”, but usually it is the simplest answer that holds the truth.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 8, 2007 @ 5:44 pm |Reply

  209. I agree with B Rick …. I now don’t have to struggle with polygamy or the blacks or any other crackpot or ludicrous and dangerous teachings of the past LDS Leaders …How Church Members manage to live with all that is difficult for me to understand .

    The Mormon Prophets and Leaders were simply either deluded or just sinister and uncaring .

    I’ve seen delusions many times in History .They occur in religion and also in Financial Markets ( Bubbles of usustainable and ludicrous prices for assetts whether it be property or shares or even daffodils etc ) .

    Its just sad because of the tragedy and violence and polygamy that early saints suffered with ……

    A very serious tragedy in my eyes and for a Mormon coming to terms with it all must be difficult .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 8, 2007 @ 11:36 pm |Reply


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