Mormons Rock

November 1, 2007

Baffled

Filed under: blog,faith,Jesus Christ,LDS,life,love,Mormons,salvation,saved — by steffielynn @ 10:51 pm
Tags: , , , ,

This is a word used to describe how I feel at this moment. 

 I read through my blog, I read the comments, and I am saddened.  Why do people care what I believe?  If I feel what I am doing is right, why must people try to PROVE me wrong?  Is it that they want to be right?  Are they trying to “save” my soul? 

If they are trying to save me, why are they so rude?  Why would I want to join up with a group of unloving people?   

How can anyone prove a belief?  How can someone say they are right and I am wrong? 

I am sad.  I wish I could change the world, I wish I could give people what I have, I wish people understood.  I wish people would listen and respect others, especially if THEY believe that person is wrong.  (but they might actually learn something!  That’s a scary thought!)

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156 Comments »

  1. Steffie, for what its worth, I am also baffled as I read the comments people post on your blog from time to time. I keep up with several blogs and I also find it strange that you have managed to attract quite a unique fan club that seem bent on trashing your faith while simultaneously claiming to love you. Many people simply do not evaluate the results they get from their communication. I recommend to any who would like to improve their communication to read the post “How to Win Friends and Influence Mormons.”

    People blog for different reasons and if one of your reasons is to connect with others who share similar beliefs and ideals, rest assured that those people are out there. I sympathize with your desire to participate in genuine and true dialogue with those of your own faith and of other faiths and that is something that I also particularly enjoy. To offer a comforting thought, again I say, those people are out there. They do exist; I feel you simply haven’t been able to connect with many of them yet.

    Comment by aquinas — November 1, 2007 @ 11:48 pm |Reply

  2. Steffie,
    You see why I stopped my blog. It ceases to become fun if the same things are rehashed over and over again. Even when the post has nothing to do with what is brought up. I think it is human nature to complain about the things that bother us. I know I am guilty of this. I think I write most of the things I write because I’m hoping that someone will show me I’m wrong (and indeed sometimes they have).

    Comment by Jay — November 1, 2007 @ 11:58 pm |Reply

  3. Steffie

    I’ll tell you why I post the way I do .

    1 I want to know how or if you can cope with the things I can’t cope with of the past history and events and also the future belief of Polygamy.

    2 I think you will be exploited/taken advantage at some point of for your genuiness ,by unscrupulous men inside church who see your loyalty and unquestioning obedience as a weakness and not a strength.

    3 I believe your Testimony is based only on an emotional feeling and that it is fallible and not reliable .

    4 I believe I already have what you have in terms of assurance and happiness, morals and values etc .Maybe thats why Mormonism has little appeal for me .

    5 I want you to know why I have difficulty believing as no one will really listen in real life … Its a therapy for me . And because I don’t get a convincing ( to me at least) answer from you , It assures me my concerns are legitimate… and that its a concern for you also in a way I hope ….

    6 If I was Mormon , then I’d be doing what you are doing ! Trying to get others to understand .. But I’m not hence the disagreement .

    7 I actually think you may be brainwashed ? lol sorry it might sound funny to you 🙂

    8 Somewhere along the line my way of questioning and or ‘attacking’ ( in others eyes) has been and is a great way to learn for me .

    9 I want you to know as a member that I dissaprove of the way the church brings some people in , ( misleading them and hiding the real history ) .It was my first condition two years ago that everyone be straight with me when i ask questions because I will double check everything .. and I did and still do ..

    10 I strongly dissaprove of the way the church whitewashes its history and send out uneducated in church history and events ,vulnerable , easily manipulated kids out as missionaries .

    Just a few for now ..

    Comment by elder joseph — November 2, 2007 @ 12:09 am |Reply

  4. aquanis,
    thank you for the encouragement! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    EJ
    I’m not being exploited. I love the gospel and it has changed my life for the better. I believe it is true. We have been discussing the same things over and over and over. I see your points, and I choose to still believe, Also this isn’t so much directd at you, It’s mostly directed at all the people who become rude and judgemental, and then claim to be christian

    Jay
    I totally understand! It’s frustrating, I just hope that someone out there who reads this will have a better understanding and maybe even soften their heart! So I keep on 🙂

    Emoboy,
    I’ll check out your link…

    Comment by steffielynn — November 2, 2007 @ 12:48 am |Reply

  5. Don’t be baffled by me. I am just considering writing a book and this is really research to see if anyone comes up with other answers besides all the standard ones I can pretty much anticipate. I don’t believe for one minute I can change how another believes. I am just researching how best to layout all the information and facts. I agree with you most anti books contain many half truths and spins. I for one do not understand why when there is no need for it. Simple undisputed historical facts should be enough. The Church has no shortage of those facts published by itself that should make an honest seeker of truth see the reality of it. So far your logic always comes back to it being based on emotional thinking rather than logical. So I guess based on that, there is a teapot that orbits the sun I believe it to my core and you can’t disprove it so because I want it to be so it is so! Amen.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 1:02 am |Reply

  6. CoventryRM

    You do not understand things regarding faith, and that is fine, but I do, I know there is a God, and not only that I know that, I am His child and that He loves me. It is the most wonderful feeling and would rather have this knowledge then all the book smarts in the world!

    So is your book about faith in general or is it about Mormons?

    Comment by steffielynn — November 2, 2007 @ 3:14 am |Reply

  7. I totally understand faith I have sat exactly where you sit I have argued the exact same way and saying the exact same things you do. I understand inner peace and personal growth without a crutch. As I said earlier religious faith can have a positive impact as a catalyst for growth, but there comes a time you either throw the crutch away or the muscle will atrophy or at the least never grow stronger.

    My book would be about Mormonism and its doctrines and teachings.

    So you beleive that Adam and Eve – the first humans lived on the American Continent?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 3:33 am |Reply

  8. If I thump my bible hard enough, you will come over to my way of thinking no matter how insulting I am.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 4:16 am |Reply

  9. This post is just so I can own the leader board, even if only for a few moments 🙂

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 4:47 am |Reply

  10. I do believe that you are going to hell. Forever. With no chance of being able to repent in hell. No one will listen. Not even Christ will ……HE who owns the keys of Hell and Death. Revelation 1:18.
    Steffie…….if you seen someone who was going to step in front of a speeding car, wouldnt you panic and yell and scream and if you were close enough to that person,push him out of the way?
    Wouldnt that person be grateful to you for saving him or her from such a tragedy?
    The analogy is quite clear. Im not reading your blog for fun. I believe you are in great danger and am simply warning you of the eternal consequences.
    Maybe one day you will be grateful. I dont know. I do sincerely hope so.

    Comment by Scavenger — November 2, 2007 @ 6:56 am |Reply

  11. Scavenger,

    That makes no sense.
    Would you damn any of your kids to eternal burning hell, simply because they believed something different from the other kids? Think about that. With all the influences out there, and all the choices out there, the chances of getting the right answer (assuming there is a right answer) are pretty slim. The odds are stacked against your kids.

    I will be very liberal and say that 1 out of your 10 kids will make the right choice. Are you saying you are willing to damn the 9 to an eternal burning hell, where you will forsake them and never listen to them again?

    Any father that would do this can kiss my A**.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 1:41 pm |Reply

  12. Scavenger,
    It is precisely that judgmental attitude that would cause people to pass you off as some “crazy” christian. If we all ran around telling each other we are going to hell nothing would ever get done. It is simply the wrong way to approach spreading the gospel. Christ showed us the right way. It is with love and understanding. Occasionally, yelling may be appropriate, but this is the exception not the rule.

    Anyway it is impossible for you to know if someone is going to “burn in hell” or not because you do not see their heart like God does, you don’t know them. You simply don’t have the authority to tell someone they are going to hell, only God does.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 2:09 pm |Reply

  13. Scavenger

    I understand what you are trying to say, but lets put this analogy to the test

    I am walking down the road when all the sudden this man comes towards me yelling, screaming, he is so close he is spitting in my face.

    He yells at me to get out of the road, that a car is coming and if I don’t get out of the road I will die. So I quickly look around……. and there is no car.

    If this man is the only person who can see this car, I would consider him a psychopath. He is yelling at me for no reason.

    You are condemning ridiculing, and judging on the basis of your own private interpretation and opinion.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 2, 2007 @ 2:29 pm |Reply

  14. This is a great dialogue. It more or less proves Sam Harris’ point in his book “End of Faith Terror and religion and the future of reason” He talks about the concept of tolerance that Scavenger doesn’t seem to have and that Jay believes that he does have.

    “While all faiths have been touched, here or there, by the spirit of *ecumenicalism, the central tenet of every religious tradition is that all others are mere repositories of error or, at best, dangerously incomplete. Intolerance is thus intrinsic to every creed. Once a person believes –really believes—that certain ideas can lead to eternal happiness, or to its antithesis, he cannot tolerate the possibility that the people he loves might be led astray by the blandishment of unbelievers. Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. “

    *ECUMENICALISM: The ‘Urge to Merge’ within Christianity*

    This intolerance comes in many faces, aggressive and obvious and subtle and hidden. As someone who has chosen a different belief system I have been on the receiving end of this, Steffie experienced this when she switched to Mormonism by the non-Mormons in her life and now believes the reverse isn’t necessarily true. If she were ever to leave Mormonism she would experience the same thing from the Mormon people she has grown to love and respect. It may be done hidden in love and maybe a little nicer but it would still be done.

    Just take a look at the blog, non-Mormon Christians come in here and attack sometimes very aggressively, Scavenger explained why, the Mormons say how they love and respect all faiths, while at the same time teach the only way to exaltation is through the Mormon Church. (Lets not get into the Salvation/Exaltation rhetorical argument here) no matter how you slice it, it is still the same thing and I think Sam Harris hit the nail right on the head.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 2:43 pm |Reply

  15. Great point steffie you are starting to understand delusional a little better… 🙂

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 2:45 pm |Reply

  16. ConventryRM,
    I don’t think most reasonable people mind if someone else holds different beliefs. I have friends that are Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Episcopalian, Methodist, Jewish, Hindu and probably a few that I’ve forgotten. I even enjoy listening to them explain their beliefs and find them very interesting and beautiful.

    I don’t think claiming to have all the truth and others have only part of it is offensive. The Pope recently declared that the Catholic Church was the one true church of God. This did not offend me in the least. I would be surprised if he didn’t think that. What offends me is when someone is so sure that they know God’s will that they can condemn someone else with final judgment. This is much worse than a simple disagreement and I have found it is impossible to have a conversation with someone like this.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 3:58 pm |Reply

  17. I think the catch 22 is if this statement

    “Once a person believes –really believes—that certain ideas can lead to eternal happiness, or to its antithesis, he cannot tolerate the possibility that the people he loves might be led astray by the blandishment of unbelievers. Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. “

    So that leaves room for those like yourself that most likely deep down know that all of this should be taken more Allegorically than Literally

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 4:04 pm |Reply

  18. You can’t really be tolerant if you really believe, they key word here being “REALLY”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 4:08 pm |Reply

  19. I would disagree that you can’t be tolerant if you really believe. The key is realizing that ultimately everyone has the freedom to choose how to live their life. If as a true believing Christian you have warned a “non-believer” then your obligation has been fulfilled. You can tolerate the non-believer as long as they are respectful of you as well.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 4:34 pm |Reply

  20. Jay

    I like your comment here

    ” What offends me is when someone is so sure that they know God’s will that they can condemn someone else with final judgment. This is much worse than a simple disagreement and I have found it is impossible to have a conversation with someone like this.”

    However In the LDS faith doesn’t the church teach that families will be split among the differing kingdoms if they don’t all conform and be active Temple Recommends ?

    This is a kind of Judgement .I know many hope that there stray or unbelieving family will come back to being mormons in the spirit world , but why if thats the case does it cause so much stress and divorce in this life when one spouse decides its not true and the other believes it is true about CK and eternal marriage ….. The sparks start for many !

    I heard a girl in bible class say , she makes sure she keeps tithing because she wants to be with her family in CK !

    Jay
    “If as a true believing Christian you have warned a “non-believer” then your obligation has been fulfilled

    I love this quote . I’ve had my warning from the Mormon church .. I love it and I’m sure i’ll sleep fine … I feel so good about myself in comparison after reading about the life Of Joseph Smith and other early Lds leaders 🙂

    I know what you mean though …..Jw’s have warned me , even the Born agains , Christadelphians too ..

    I just wonder does it ever occur to them all that I might actually be safe and that they might be the ones in danger ? 🙂

    Comment by elder joseph — November 2, 2007 @ 5:40 pm |Reply

  21. “This is a kind of Judgement.”
    You’re right it is, but its not a final judgment.

    Have you ever had a Mormon tell you you’re going to Hell or maybe the Telestial Kingdom:)? It just doesn’t happen.

    To say LDS members cast final judgment is to take their doctrine and make assumptions about people’s thoughts. I don’t have to be a mind reader to know what some “Christians” think, they straight out say everyone is going to hell. Scavenger above is just one example of many. It’s really sad.

    Comment by Jay — November 2, 2007 @ 8:00 pm |Reply

  22. Steffie

    I find your analogy “TEST” here very interesting. When it comes to others why you would spin the story and say “and there is no car” the point of the story is if you really felt or believed someone was in harms way you would try and save them. That is the point. You may find the way they do it out of line or offensive but others may find the way you do it offensive as well.

    “If this man is the only person who can see this car, I would consider him a psychopath.”

    You have consistently used the argument of “God told me” as support for your belief. You told me that no amount of physical evidence could sway your faith since “God told you it was true” How is that any different from the man you just called a psychopath?

    Why don’t you apply the same “TEST” to your invisible cars?

    I will say I believe that Scavenger has been offensive, but I think it is just a symptom to somthing all religious people are susceptible to.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 2, 2007 @ 9:58 pm |Reply

  23. I actually don’t think scavenger was offensive. He stated his belief and did so in a polite manner (unlike other like-minded posters).

    I do however find his belief offensive. There is a big difference.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 2, 2007 @ 10:07 pm |Reply

  24. I know Steffie would make a great neighbor.

    And I am sure we would have some fun and very animated talks.

    Yep, even the Bible pastor will read your blog from time to time in this WordPress community. 🙂

    Comment by Todd Wood — November 2, 2007 @ 10:43 pm |Reply

  25. I don’t think Scavenger is trying to be offensive, I think he really is trying to “save” us, I think he is doing what he thinks is right, and I do not fault him for that. It is just that I was brought up with these same ideas, and I was wrong to judge people. Now I know it is wrong, and I am no longer judgemental.

    Coventry RM,

    The differences between myself and scavenger are huge. I don’t go around yelling “hell, hell, youre going to hell!!!” I simply state my personal beliefs, take it or leave it.

    How can that be offensive????

    Todd Wood,
    I am a very good neighbor!!!! 🙂 You can visit anytime! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 3, 2007 @ 1:04 am |Reply

  26. You missed my entire point. Your TEST only works because it makes the assumption that there really isn’t a car. Your imaginary car isn’t any more real to others than his is to you.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 3, 2007 @ 4:08 am |Reply

  27. Yes, you are correct. Maybe I am dellusional. Maybe my car is imaginary, but I don’t go throwing my hands in the air telling everyone else that they are going to be run over if they don’t see MY car. I realize not everyone believes as I do. I realize that you could be right and I could be wrong. I don’t know all the answers, but I DO know my own heart and my own feelings.

    Maybe I will die and nothing will happen, maybe it was all a fraud. If nothing else I will have lived a happy and full life. If my feelings were correct I’m with my family forever in heaven. It’s a win win. 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 3, 2007 @ 4:39 am |Reply

  28. Here I sit reading all of this and trying to decide if it is funny to hear you all go back and forth or feel sad for you all – well some of you at least. For some of you its – well my bible is bigger than you bible or my point of view must be right and you all are brain washed or if you look in this book it says this. I was raised catholic and I can tell you that you can take any book you want and spin the ideas to your way of thinking – but that does not make it right. Some things just cannot be proven, they just are.
    What matters the most is what you feel in your heart and what you, yourself believe in. If you don’t agree with someones point of view or belief that is your right, what is not your right is to try to change their point of view to fit yours.

    Comment by Ron — November 3, 2007 @ 4:52 am |Reply

  29. Steffie

    You said
    “Maybe I will die and nothing will happen, maybe it was all a fraud. If nothing else I will have lived a happy and full life. If my feelings were correct I’m with my family forever in heaven. It’s a win win. ”

    If your feelings are correct ?

    Does that mean The American Indians are really Israelites through feelings ?

    Is it right to continue presenting them with a bogus Ancestral History with the BOM ? Would Jesus really approve of that ?

    Is it right to teach a false History of the Americas because of a feeling ?

    Because of the above and people believed it gave Joseph Smith Poer and Authority to do as he wished ( or God wished depending ) It gave him sexual Access to Teenagers and Married women termed as plural Marriage . Did Joseph look after all these brides as a husband might be expected to do ? Why are they not listed on the church’s website ? or the new Joseph Smith website ?

    Why are they not honoured and remembered by the church for their loyalty to the everlasting covenent ?

    The BofM gave also Brigham Young Power and Authority to take young girls against their own wishes and concieve his own Royal Dynasty!! The threats are in JOD’s.

    Where would he have been in life without that book ?

    And if the Indians are not descended from Israelites ? What happens then ? Who is responsible for this mass injustice to human kind ?

    The church should do the right thing , instead of keeping people in the dark .

    Members are coming to know the BofM is fiction really .The implications which follow that is sickening .. It means All the tribulations , death , murder , poverty which came upon the early saints was for nothing .It means the polygamy was false . It means the Utah Trek and sacrifice of lives was for nothing ..It means Joseph Smith and Brigham Young successfully reigned as Imposters .Its the worst deception I can think of ….

    The tide is turning and I hope for a Coup in the same dramatic style as I saw when the communist regimes fell in Eastern Europe , minus the blood of course .

    And of course if your feelings are true you may actually be one of the many wives of a polygamist just like your Heavenly Father …. Thats true mormonism and temple polygamous sealings are practiced today ….

    I think you have your own belief Steffie and its not Mormonism ..

    Ron

    You said
    “If you don’t agree with someones point of view or belief that is your right, what is not your right is to try to change their point of view to fit yours.”

    Try telling that to the Mormon Church Leaders today .Follow The Prophet .. obedience etc … holding up th BofM in cobference because its own members are coming to see through it as a Historical Factual Narrative ..

    Try telling that to Brigham Young who would wish Blood Atonement on anyone opposing him and leaving the church because they no longer believed him and his beliefs or at least what he taught as doctrine from the Lord revealed to him .. he called them Apsotates.

    Comment by elder joseph — November 3, 2007 @ 11:16 am |Reply

  30. If you said that to the leaders today, they would say… ………….I’m sorry you feel that way…… They are not going to do anything to you as you imply!

    They are not forcing anyone to be LDS, It is by choice.

    Ron is sooooo right. Believe what you believe, and I’ll believe what I believe. I’m not trying to convince you that what I believe is right, I just want others out there to hear about the gospel, if they feel it is right, then I am one happy camper!

    I have no proof that what I believe is true. You are right it is based on feelings. I see nothing wrong with that and I don’t know why people critisize me for it.

    I believe God exists and I believe that he is loving and a Father to us all. If I was to leave the LDS church (which i’m not of course, this is hypothetical) I would become an atheist like Coventry RM. I would believe in nothing because to me nothing else makes sense. I had a religious upbringing, and I always had spiritual questions that no one could ever answer. I would never go back to that. My personal beliefs go right along with the LDS teachings, regardless of the history. To me it was not all for nothing. Those pioneers made sacrifices for me, so that I could have the gospel. I will be forever grateful to them!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 3, 2007 @ 1:41 pm |Reply

  31. There is nothing wrong with feelings. Which faith is stronger, one that has to be shown something is true (i.e. Thomas) or one that simply believes. This is another thing I like about the LDS Church. They don’t expect you to take their word for it, they ask you to pray and study to find out for yourself. I really like this concept and it is the reason why I feel comfortable questioning and trying to come to a greater understanding of LDS Church history. The pattern of other religions is that you just believe because your Pastor or Priest or leader said to. Don’t get me wrong, there is this element in the LDS Church too, but there is also room for questioning, learning and growing on your own.

    Ron,
    Ideally I’d like to see conversations where we can all share our beliefs with each other in a respectful atmosphere. I find it refreshing to know there are people of any religion that actually live and love it. I relish the opportunity to hear what other believe and why and to explain what I believe. When done with respect it is always an uplifting experience.

    Rick,
    The only way I could not take offense at Scavenger’s remarks is if I did not believe in God. Since I do I am offended by his judgmental attitude. His approach helps no one, but perhaps himself by bolstering his feelings of spiritual superiority.

    Comment by Jay — November 3, 2007 @ 2:37 pm |Reply

  32. I’m not perfect, but I say do what your heart tells you is right!

    I read your blog because it is uplifting, and I know the words you type are so dear to your heart. It may be that this is the new type of persecution that we must endure…I say it’s way better than being tarred and feathered like early latter day saints, but then again it’s your blog and as you can see from mine I don’t talk about my religion a lot. If you help but one person along your journey…is it not worth it?

    Comment by cowgalutah — November 3, 2007 @ 5:46 pm |Reply

  33. cowgalutah

    You speak about a new type of persecution ?

    We are just teling the truth about Historical events thats all .. thats hardly persecution

    and why would we want to tar and feather you , You get along in life just like others .

    Now if you were secretly marrying young convert girls off to Old Mormon Polygamist leaders , then of course it wouldn’t go unnoticed …..

    How would you feel if your family or friends joined what they thought was a Christian Church ( Milk) and you find out they are practicing these arranged marriages of young girls to the Old leaders ( Meat) ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 3, 2007 @ 6:51 pm |Reply

  34. cowgalutah

    So would you call religious shuning of non-believers persecution?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 3, 2007 @ 9:30 pm |Reply

  35. JW’s shun ex members .They call them Apostates .Its a culture of fear . It tears families apart . Members are taught to shun family members and put church first .

    Anyone who leaves the JW’s is always branded an Apostate who has chosen the ways of the world and Satan .
    It never seems to cross their mind that people quit when they find out they HAVE BEEN LIED TO and DECIEVED in a most despicable manner …

    The JW history is embarrassing and tragic .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 1:07 am |Reply

  36. I don’t know any LDS that “shun” anyone.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 4, 2007 @ 2:17 am |Reply

  37. I have been shunned – Mormons use the word apostate as well. In fact I was taught in Church that reading anti was the first step to apostasy. I can say that is absolutley true

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 5:17 am |Reply

  38. steffie

    The Mormon way of shunning is more subtle .Members are taught that anyone loosing their testimony is due to a desire for Sin/Laziness etc ….

    Its common that a spouse having feelings of unbelief is too scared to reveal it to his family .

    If your husband changed his mind some time later and became say a catholic 🙂 You are taught that he has effectively terminated an eternal mariage .Would you divorce him and go looking for a Priesthood Holder in search of eternal Godhood ?

    This is the way of they reserved women for themsleves through threats like this in the past .

    This is what the church’s teachings effectively promote …

    Many women have fallen for this trap only to end up having given up a good husband and then married an abuser full of self righteousness and smugness having Gods Priestly authority and dominance over his wife .

    I see this apaulling smugness in some my missionaries .The church has created some Brigham Youngs . I have a missionary who likes the idea of calling young 14 year olds to marriage .He said its reward for obedience ….this is what the early leaders taught …. the more obedient they were to Leadership the more young wives they were given by the Leadership .This is how it was conducted .

    And anyone not being fully obedient to the Leadership could have his wives and children taken from him and given to another mormon man who is more obedient.

    I’ve had misionaries when they are in their first month in this country and they are sincere and nice .When I see them again nearly two years on some have become arrogant , self righteous , offensive , insulting and all because thay have been taught this throughout the mission .

    If Jesus had the right to overthrow a table in The temple , then they too have this authority ? this is the Mormon Male Mindset !

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 11:28 am |Reply

  39. No EJ it’s not.

    I really don’t know where you come up with this stuff, this is in no way how men in the church act. I find mormon men to be the MOST humble, kind and loving men that I have ever met.

    I have met some real jerks, some smug arrogant unloving men. This does not describe even ONE LDS man I have met.

    They are the most incredible fathers and husbands. My home teachers have done so much for me and have been so amazing. They are NOTHING like what you describe. And missionaries, I have seen them change only for the better.

    In the last 2 1/2 years I have been in 3 wards and one branch. I have yet to come across any that are even close to what you describe!

    So I have to say you are so very inncorrect!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 4, 2007 @ 1:28 pm |Reply

  40. Brigham Young JOD 17:119 -120

    “It takes a higher power than a bill of divorce to take a woman
    from a man who is a good man and honors his Priesthood − it must be a man who possesses a higher power in
    the Priesthood, or else the woman is bound to her husband, and will be forever and ever.”

    Priesthood rank can take men from their wives .

    I agree most Mormon Men are kind and Curteous etc , but thats on the outside .You don’t really know what they are like on the inside ..

    A mormon Bishop was arrested recently for molesting 3 girls ( ward members ) ..

    A stake President was arrested for arranging sex with a 14 year old .

    All the time they were signing temple recommends and checking on members worthiness …

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 3:32 pm |Reply

  41. Steffie

    I hate to tell you that you could not be further from the truth in regard to how Mormon men believe and think. One thing they do know is how to behave and when. One thing you will never be privy to in the Church is sitting in on Elders Quorum presidency meeting Bishopric meetings etc. or be part of a home teaching partnership, male missionary companionships, HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU KNOW THE MEN DON’T TALK AND THINK LIKE THAT? That’s like me telling you what women talk about amongst themselves.

    I have participated in all those things. What EJ says is absolutely true I have physically witnessed it, seen it, and participated in it. I can also tell you first hand, that more that close to ½ the Mormon men I knew in my past Mormon life are absolutely miserable in their marriages. The thing is people are very good at knowing in whom they can confide within the Church. I was always the type of person in my Church callings that tended to be more laid back and liberal as a consequence many fellow priesthood holders felt comfortable in talking with me. This even became more evident as I was making my exit from the Church. Steffie these are conversations that you would never be privy of. The conversations that EJ talks about and the opinions voiced by young boys are the same as any locker room style talk that Men just don’t typically do or talk about around Women.

    The shunning part, a persons action cannot be unaffected by what they believe or there perception on the world. I will give you an example. This last conference the General Relief Society President, Sister Beck gave what you most likely thought was a beautiful loving talk as well as at the General Relief society meeting in Sept.
    Let’s take a look at some of the things she said:

    A – “Faithful daughters of God desire children”

    B– “They do not abandon their plan by succumbing to social pressure and worldly models of parenting. The responsibility mothers have today has never required more vigilance. More than at any time in the history of the world, we need mothers who know. Children are being born into a world where they “wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12).1 However, mothers need not fear. When mothers know who they are and who God is and have made covenants with Him, they will have great power and influence for good on their children.”

    C– “Within the plan of the Lord there are specific things Latter-day Saint women must do because they are daughters of God, chosen to come to the earth at a time which has been called “a very difficult season in the history of the world.”

    D — Knowing and defending the divine roles of women is so important in a world where women are bombarded with false messages about their identity. Popular media figures on the radio and television set themselves up as authorities and spokespersons for women. While these media messages may contain elements of truth, most preach a gospel of individual fulfillment and self-worship, often misleading women regarding their true identity and worth. These voices offer a counterfeit happiness, and as a result, many women are miserable, lonely, and confused.”

    Okay so what is the problem you may wonder well let me point out a couple things. I have been told on here that Mormons don’t put down others or teach with fear – take a look at paragraph B – Not only are we in really horrible times but there is spiritual wickedness in high places. Hey but don’t fear as long as you what —- BE A MORMON and follow MORMON teachings. Again in C watch out the World is REALLY bad more so now that ever. What are worldly models of Parenting? Maybe give your children freedom to choose and think for themselves when it comes to religious and spiritual thinking? I guess it is open for you to interpret and judge that can’t possibly cause certain members of the Church to Shun and disapprove of anything other than MORMON parenting.

    Lets look at shunning like I said above your behavior to others cannot be uninfluenced by your personal beliefs. My wife by choice never had nor ever wants to have her own children, even though she is a wonderful loving step Mother to my children and her pets. Is it any wonder that my Mormon family especially the females look at my wife as incomplete or there must be something wrong with her, it shows in how she is treated and not accepted into my family as a spouse should be. They just see her as Women talked about in Paragraph A & D (I can tell you she is more complete and less confused than any Mormon mother I have met) If D is true why is the usage of depression medication in UTAH through the roof?

    Like I said before Mormons will talk and say things and not even have a clue as to how their opinions and beliefs can be hurtful and offensive. My son months before his mission was in the car talking about his views on marriage and women, my wife was in the car, he stated without hesitation that there really had to be something wrong with a woman that didn’t want to have children. Lisa held her tongue of course and I don’t think he even had a clue, of what he had just said.
    These are just a few examples, I know for a fact that my family would say just like any other that they don’t shun and are tolerant. I am sure they really believe that, but just as a fish is unaware of the water it swims in and we as humans unaware of the air around us, Mormons are just has unaware of their environment and its impact on how they view and treat others.

    Steffie you have to remember as EJ says after 2 years they are still giving you Milk, the Men in the Church know your husband his new as well they will be careful about what they say around him. It is not a conspiracy just conditioning. You just don’t say controversial things around a newbie.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 5:13 pm |Reply

  42. I said I have never met any, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t wicked men out there posing as good LDS men.

    I have experience with the world, my first 26 years of life I was in it. So I guess I would say only from age 15 would count, so I have basically 11 years of first hand knowledge. The world is indeed wicked. The church has not brainwashed me into thinking this, it’s what I know. Choosing to not have a child is fine, it’s your choice. Most women choose to have children, i must say it baffles me as to why a women would not want one. This is not “shunning” someone. I choose to have children. They have made my life meaningful, and if I had never had any I would never know true, unconditional love.

    As a mother I agree 100% with her talk. And just because you are LDS does not mean you bring your kids up as Mormon zombies. I want my children to make their own choices.

    Since there are only a few active LDS men on my blog it is hard to give an example of how amazing these men are, but we have a few.

    My husband, he has changed so much and became such a great father and husband

    Happyman4, from what I can tell he is genuine and caring and is very kind

    LDS Anarchist he seems to be straight up, and thoughtful.

    Jay, he is sincere, genuine, caring and VERY respectful.

    And Bishop rick, even though he is not so much a believer anymore he still is caring and considerate, and sincere.

    I admire these qualities. And through all their comments I have never found them to be rude or to have shunned anyone!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 4, 2007 @ 5:41 pm |Reply

  43. I never said wicked, everyone I mentioned was a well meaning wonderful person. My family are well meaning people. I believe without the Church they would still be well meaning people as well as all those you mentioned above, but at the same time have the ability to be more accepting of others around them. The environment and culture around you shapes and influences your views on others. Subtle shunning is much more damaging and hurtful in my opinion than doing it out right, at least then it could be dealt with and talked through. I don’t think really understand the psychological impact this type of believing has on a person and their ability to accept and respect others. There is a good reason that Mormons tend to be fairly closed community. There are very few Mormons that have really close intimate friendships outside of the Church. (Of course there are always exceptions to the rule; I am talking the vast majority)

    This is not saying these are bad, wicked people in fact I don’t think I have met very many if any actual bad wicked people. Most people are well meaning and well intended, accepting and loving people for who they are doesn’t mean you don’t have to set boundaries and accept things for how they are. I do my best to work within the current dynamic of my family but that doesn’t change the reality of the situation.

    “I said I have never met any, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t wicked men out there posing as good LDS men. ”

    Like I said above I never labeled any of them wicked you did. What I am saying to you is that YES you have met Men just like I mentioned, my point being you wouldn’t know who they are. I am sure at least one or more of your home teachers over the years is exactly what I described. – How does saying that a large of amount of Mormon men are miserable in their marriages, translate to wicked men posing as good LDS????????

    What about the question of Utah as a State prescribes almost twice as much anti-depression medication than California if there is any credence to Sister Beck’s talk?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 6:36 pm |Reply

  44. PS – Credence to Sisters Beck if the actual impact of a talk like that invokes fear and guilt and feeling of inadequacy in living up to the impossible standards of Motherhood and roles of women in the church then the high rate of anti depressants makes perfect sense.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 6:43 pm |Reply

  45. I’m responding to both EJ and You, And although you are correct you did not use the word wicked, it is most certainly implied (ie. EJ giving examples of mormon leaders who were REALLY horrible, and implying that all mormon men do this because we don’t really know what they are like on the inside)….and then you both turn around and say they are good men. So i’m confused, which is it?

    I would say there are a lot of LDS who are sheltered. If they seem to shun I do not think it is intentional.

    If there are LDS men who are miserable in their marriage then they need to fix it. It takes to and a marriage is worth saving.

    As far as anti depressants in Utah, More then half of Utah is NON LDS.

    And Nothing is wrong with taking Anti depressants. I know that depression is real and also inherited. So if they take something to get better, good for them!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 4, 2007 @ 6:56 pm |Reply

  46. So maybe the non-Mormons have to take it to deal with living in Mormonville. LOL

    If it was being prescribed based on actual chemical imbalance and genetics it would not make sense for it to be prescribed at a higher per capita than anywhere else. So that just leaves us with the prescriptions for dealing with environment or circumstances. Yes Utah is only 50% Mormon which substantially higher than any other state. That is still not a fair representation because when you get to areas like Provo, Orem, basically South of Draper to Spanish Fork it is a lot closer to 100% than 50%. Plus when just one belief system represents even 25% percent of a population I am sure it would dominate over the 100’s of different belief systems that would make up the other 75%.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 7:07 pm |Reply

  47. They are good men that think they are doing the right thing with good intents ( I am talking the current everyday members)

    They have just been misled or are trapped and can’t see a way out. I had a friend attempt suicide because his marriage was so bad, but his Mormon faith told him divorce was not an option. Dealing with the repercussions of having a failed marriage in the church and the ridicule from family and friends was too much to handle, suicide seemed a much more appealing option for him.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 7:13 pm |Reply

  48. FYI

    “According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) the leading cause of death in America is heart disease, with suicide ranking eleventh. [1] Compare that with what the Utah Department of Health says. They report the leading cause of death for males between the ages of 15-44 as suicide. The Utah External Injury Data System says that from 1992 to 1999 there were 7,713 suicides alone. Eleven of those were between the ages of 0-9 years of age. [2] The rate of suicide in Utah for females between the ages of 15-44 is four times the national average. “

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 4, 2007 @ 7:22 pm |Reply

  49. Steffie

    I didn’t say all Mormon men are wicked .I’m saying that amongst them there will be some unscupulous types and so don’t be too trusting .Use discernment and caution at all times .

    I too was naive at 20 years old thinking Jw’s were all kind etc , I find out their were Adultery problems within the congregation some time later from a convert friend …. and then about 12 years ago it was revealed there was lots of hidden child sex abuse within thsi church worldwide .

    My missionary friend was conned of her life savings with her naivety .Its strange how she happens to have depression as well and yet seem to want me to believe that the church would make me happy ?

    I think a baptism with all the pressure she was getting was what she misunderstood as happiness ..

    Remember the missionaries are blamed if they don’t get baptisms , its all their fault .if they work they will get them … the church is perfect . The real reason some investigators opted out was the internet.

    In fact thats what confused her when she first came , the fact that I was happy and they couldn’t convince or dupe me into believing they carried some special spirit with them .
    we all felt great together but I feel that always so that meant:

    1 I have the spirit equal to theirs .
    2 They have no spirit above anyone else.
    3 Neither of us have the spirit .
    4 Both of us have the Spirit .

    They always felt the spirit with me and I was hailed as best Investigator for months ! 🙂 But thats what I was an Imnvestigator and I told them I would look thoroughly and any lies or misinformation would not be welcomed .I’m not lazy I did everything they challenged me to except baptise .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 4, 2007 @ 9:30 pm |Reply

  50. Steffielynn, What a strong spirit you have. I also think it’d be nice if you could have a blog in which people could communicate without rudeness, arrogance, dogmatism, and plain old ill will. Alas, with some members of this group, ’tis not to be.

    As I was skimming some of the above vile comments, I thought of a quote by Boyd K. Packer. I can’t recall the exact words and am disinclined to look it up, so I’ll paraphrase the gist of it which is to let people bash us all they want. It doesn’t really matter in the end because nothing will stop the progress of this great church. In fact, Elder Packer feels that their ranting and railing might even advance our cause, so go ahead Guys. Knock yourselves out.

    What is your harshness and rancor compared to the love and power of God? Nothing. Just a bunch of words “full of sound and fury signifying nothing.”

    Comment by marlajayne — November 5, 2007 @ 6:59 pm |Reply

  51. I am not sure how presenting information is rude.

    Since leaving the Church one skill that I have developed is that when somone points something out to me I owe it to myself to at least take my mind down that path and consider that there is some truth to what they are saying, do a personal inventory as well research any statements of fact they may have presented. Please point out to me, if you feel I have been rude, what and why.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 7:09 pm |Reply

  52. CoventryRM

    You have decided the church isn’t true, I have decided that it IS. So you are right, and I am wrong, OR you are wrong and I am right, really none of us will know for certain until we die. And when that happens I hope to see you and I will wave and smile and I am sure we will be good friends! If I am wrong, well I guess you won’t see me, and will never be able to really shove it in my face. Sucks for you!

    How are you rude??? You like to get on your high horse and tell me and others that we don’t use logic, blah blah blah. The rest of us go by our heart, which you find insane and ridiculous.(and by the way NOTHING is wrong with that!) and you… YOU have this GYNORMOUS brain and none of us can ever be as brilliant and logical as YOU.

    I’m happy using my heart to guide me. Faith alone is enough for me!

    MarlaJayne,

    Thank you so very much for your comment. What a perfect quote!!!! You have lifted my spirits!!!!!! If you could hear me I would be singing…”there is sunshine in my soul today”!!!!! You are a beautiful and loving person!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 5, 2007 @ 7:56 pm |Reply

  53. Steffie,

    I don’t think you are right, but I hope you are, because I want you to wave to me and for us to be good friends.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 5, 2007 @ 8:54 pm |Reply

  54. Good job MarlaJayne,
    Myself, I don’t like jumping out here too much – just because I don’t want to hear it. I have my feelings and beliefs and they are mine. All of the talking in the world won’t change my feelings but they could change my beliefs – but then they wouldn’t be my beliefs anymore would they, they would be someone else’s beliefs. So I will keep my beliefs and I will call them faith. Faith to believe what I can’t not see but what my heart tells me is true. For if I cannot believe what is in my heart then what is the point.
    And to add a bit on here – this is my belief – I am not trying to force or push this on anyone, if you don’t like reading it – turn away – it is not up to debate, there is no discussion necessary on it.

    Comment by Ron — November 5, 2007 @ 9:03 pm |Reply

  55. Ron,

    I hope you realize that you and Marlajayne high-fiving each other after slapping someone down (even if indirectly) is inviting a response.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 5, 2007 @ 9:09 pm |Reply

  56. Oh I know Bishop Rick – I do have a question for you though. I am not sure how to put it so here it is.

    I am new so bare with me here – ok you call yourself bishop rick – but of course I don’t think that you are a bishop rick – of course you once could have been a bishop rick – but if you were once a bishop rick or are currently a bishop rick and you have the doubts that I have seen you write about why use the name bishop rick? – did you understand that because reading it back I barely did – LOL

    Comment by Ron — November 5, 2007 @ 9:21 pm |Reply

  57. He has a really good point BR! But your right, someone will have SOMETHING to say about it!

    Ron,
    I’m gonna answer for Bishop rick

    He is a member, but no longer really believes, he is still active because of his family. ( I don’t think he has ever been a bishop.)

    The Bishopric is a word describing the ward leadership group, consisting of the Bishop, and his first and second counselors.

    When people use this word they are speaking of all three men. Bishop is just One man.

    confusing isn’t it!

    In my first ward I called the bishop, Bishop Rick for a month, and no one said anything. I was so embarrased to find out that was not his name! I don’t think anyone actually noticed, but I felt so silly!

    There is a lot of LDS lingo, It took me forever to catch on! Here is a link that might be helpful! http://www.mormonchic.com/gospel/lds_lingo.asp

    Now you’ll be ahead of the game!!!! 🙂

    P.s it’s so nice to have these kind of conversations ! Thanks for that 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 5, 2007 @ 9:36 pm |Reply

  58. Ron,

    As Steffie states, I have never been a Bishop.
    I just use Bishop Rick as a play on the word Bishopric.
    Just a little mormon humor.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 5, 2007 @ 10:35 pm |Reply

  59. Wow and you call other people RUDE …that’s amazing….. Thanks for the input though. I never remember saying I had a GYNORMOUS brain. I have made my points and asked for things to be considered. Yes you take the position you are right, I take the position of I think I am right and here is why, you however are right because God told you so, so I am not sure who is being more pious here. Any information you would give me I go and research it. I will read the apologetics and check the validity of their source material etc. The problem is you have never given me an actual piece of information that I could even check on. So yes I have questioned your methods, I think people need to use both their brain and their heart. (I won’t get into the physiology of if there is actually a difference however)

    Am I trying to change how you belief? I am not that arrogant I have no delusions that I could change the way you believe or think. So why do I post here? You have this blog it is open to the public to visit. We have seen a wide range of people on here we have the TBM’s, we have the questioning ones, we have the Mormons that have their own version of the Church, these are only the ones that post. I am sure there are people that come in read leave and never post.

    I post on here so that anyone considering the Church or someone trying to figure out how to follow their mind and heart and leave the Church that happens to come by this blog can read both sides, see that there is something after Mormonism if they so choose. I was told from the time I was a child that I would be miserable and unhappy to ever leave the church. I can bare witness that is not true and I am much happier and feel much more complete now. I can use BOTH my mind and heart. Live without fear.

    If something I post, helps someone recover from Mormonism then I have done something good in this world, the same as you feel about anyone that reads your story and posts and decides to join the Church, we are the same in that respect, if that makes me rude or high on my horse, guilty as charged.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 11:16 pm |Reply

  60. I did ask and make this statement.

    “when somone points something out to me I owe it to myself to at least take my mind down that path and consider that there is some truth to what they are saying, do a personal inventory as well research any statements of fact they may have presented. Please point out to me, if you feel I have been rude, what and why.”

    I can understand from what are saying however: As I look at my posts, certainly some of my sarcasm was offensive and I will try to be more aware in the future. I do believe every human deserves to be treated with respect.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 5, 2007 @ 11:24 pm |Reply

  61. My comment was rude, and I apologize if I offended you, But you asked how you were rude, so I gave you my opinion.

    Coventry RM I am not the smartiest chic in the world, and I know that. I was not given the gift of knowledge, not the kind that you speak of. I was given a very soft compationate heart. Even if I wanted to sort through everything you give me I would probably not understand half of it. But I’m ok with that. I feel extremly blessed that I have been given the gift of FEELINGS! I read my scriptures and most of it flies over my head, and I can read a verse 50 times and still cannot memorize it!

    From what I get out of your comments I sense that you are intelligent, but maybe you think everyone is or should be on your level. Not everyone thinks like you, not everyone wants to.

    Anyways, Again I apologize, even though we strongly disagree I feel you are genuine in your beliefs.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 5, 2007 @ 11:31 pm |Reply

  62. I appreciate your last comment, thanks! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 5, 2007 @ 11:33 pm |Reply

  63. It sure is quiet around here. I just figured out how to use my LDS Library 2006 COOL!

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 6, 2007 @ 5:47 am |Reply

  64. What is a LDS library 2006?

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 12:41 pm |Reply

  65. You can get pretty much every church publication imaginable on CD so you can search by topic, scriptures, conference talks, etc.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 6, 2007 @ 2:39 pm |Reply

  66. “Would you damn any of your kids to eternal burning hell, simply because they believed something different from the other kids? Think about that. With all the influences out there, and all the choices out there, the chances of getting the right answer (assuming there is a right answer) are pretty slim. The odds are stacked against your kids.” (Bishop Rick)

    It does make sense, approached from a completely different mindset. The Bible is very clear, that those who seek God will find Him, if they seek Him with all their heart. It’s also clear that broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many will find it, but narrow is the road that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Why? Sin – we want to do what WE want to do, rather than what God wants us to do. And there are consequences to that. Not b/c I said so, but b/c God said so. The odds are no more “stacked” against one person than they are against anyone else, b/c each of us have the same opportunity, and each of us have the same way to come to God.

    “I will be very liberal and say that 1 out of your 10 kids will make the right choice. Are you saying you are willing to damn the 9 to an eternal burning hell, where you will forsake them and never listen to them again?

    Any father that would do this can kiss my A**.” (B Rick)

    If people don’t make the choice to be a child of God in this life, God simply grants their request for all eternity. If you don’t want Him now, why would you want Him in eternity? Additionally, He is God, and has given us clear directions as to how to come to Him, and the consequences if we don’t. Nobody goes to hell by accident – they go there by choice.

    Comment by Brad — November 6, 2007 @ 2:40 pm |Reply

  67. “Maybe I will die and nothing will happen, maybe it was all a fraud. If nothing else I will have lived a happy and full life. If my feelings were correct I’m with my family forever in heaven. It’s a win win.” (Steffielynn)

    But here’s where you’re thinking isn’t correct, Steffielynn.

    Let’s take your beliefs and mine, which are totally opposite. I believe that I am going to heaven, and you are going to hell, based on our respective beliefs. You believe that you will go to a higher level of heaven, and that I will go to a lesser level of heaven, based on our respective beliefs (under your beliefs, hell is not an option for me).

    Let’s assume you’re completely right, and I’m completely wrong, and we each stay in our current beliefs. Then you will get the higher level of heaven, and I will get a lesser level of heaven, but nonetheless we’ll both be in heaven. Not too bad for either of us, if you ask me.

    But now let’s assume I’m completely right, and you’re completely wrong, and we each stay in our current beliefs. Then I will be in Heaven (the only, all-encompassing heaven), but you will be in hell. Great for me, but didn’t work out so well for you.

    I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. You have nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Who do you think holds the better position, going into eternity? Further, given this scenario, wouldn’t it behoove you, just a little, to at least investigate all the claims people have against Mormonism, and all the research and facts that show it to be not true, so at least at the end of the day, you’ve done all you can to make sure you’re on the right path? I would think it would.

    I don’t think it’s a “win-win” for you, as you say above.

    Comment by Brad — November 6, 2007 @ 3:59 pm |Reply

  68. “I have no proof that what I believe is true. You are right it is based on feelings. I see nothing wrong with that and I don’t know why people critisize me for it.” (Steffielynn)

    My goodness, Steffielynn, if you know this to be true, how can you possibly ignore what people tell you??? The Bible tells us not to rely on our heart, our feelings (“the heart is deceitful above all things, and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9). We are told that the Bible is, and should be, the basis for what we know (“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11). This tells us to examine what we hear, check it against the Bible, and if it is in agreement with what the Bible says, then do you believe it. But you don’t just believe what you hear, b/c it “feels” right. The Bible also says that “all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16) – the Bible should be our basis, not our feelings.

    And here’s what puzzles not only me, Steffielynn, but many others on here, and throughout the world. If you know you have no proof, and what you believe is based on feelings, and people show you that what you believe is not based on the Bible, and has in fact been shown to be not true, how can you possibly still believe in it? This is what I mean when I say you have volitional objections, rather than fact-based objections. You laughed it off before, but you admit above that you have no basis for what you believe. Please reconsider, for your own sake!

    Comment by Brad — November 6, 2007 @ 4:16 pm |Reply

  69. The way I understand mormon Celestial Kingdom is men having endles sexual intercourse with mutliple wives producing spirit children forever ..
    This is why they had polygamy ( or at least it evolved into this ) .They thought they had to collect as many of their wives now and marry as many as possible …. Women were told that it was their purpose in life to be one of many wives and that it was the order of Heaven .Monogomy was branded as EVIL .

    Those who don’t reach CK will be single forever with no sexual reproduction .. They will be Eunuchs , just like the Eunuch Angel who suposedly commanded Joseph Smith to marry young teens against his will ..

    Its a quite a command coming from an Angel who chose not to marry himself .

    Mormon men would call women into these polygamous marriages by heir power of priesthood Authority .But they only allowed those who were obedient to the heirarchy .Those who disagreed with anything Brigham said or polygamy were not given any privilages of leadership or wives .
    Wives were given as rewards for obedience ..

    Journal Of Discourses has many threats against women who dared to dispute this polygamous system ..

    How else do old men get to marry young girls/teens and concieve with them ( Have sex) without threat of hell and damnation ..

    This is the mormon Reality and the biggest reason together with the blacks statements and temple ban that causes me not to join .

    I don’t have a problem with the Christian Aspect of it and Word Of wisdom or the pressure to give more of my money and time to charities and others in need . This is the easy part , living with the past is too much om my conscience ..

    Tithing would be fine too if it was what it claimed to be .

    I’m scared I will be punished by God for believing he was behind it all .. simple as that .

    I need to have a good conscience at death .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 6, 2007 @ 4:54 pm |Reply

  70. Brad,

    I am willing to risk everything (eternity) because of my beliefs. I do not believe the way you do. I believe that my father in Heaven loves me, and I believe he loves ALL His children, including you, EJ, Bishop Rick, Coventry RM, Happyman, Jay…..etc We ALL have a different way of thinking. Because I believe that my Heavenly Father loves us ALL, I KNOW He would not want to send any of us to burn in Hell because we did not understand things. This would make NO sense and if He did this He would not be very loving.

    As far as feelings go, I do not understand your points. Are you saying you are a Christian because you have PROOF????? This makes no sense what so ever! You believe in Christ and that Christ is God, but what proof do you have? So you are calling me out and at the same time calling yourself out. How can you question my faith when everything you have is also based on faith? I can understand Coventry RM questioning faith verses logic, but I cannot understand this line of questioning comming from another person of faith!

    Ps
    Thank you for the respectful comments!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 5:00 pm |Reply

  71. EJ

    I believe that God has a very wonderful plan and He will not have us put in any circumstance that we cannot handle.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 5:04 pm |Reply

  72. To clarify I don’t think faith and logic verse each other I think they go hand in hand and need proper balance. Nor do I believe am any more intelligent or any less feeling than anyone else or at least one has to come at the expense of the other. I would consider myself very feeling, but I try to figure out and understand why and what I am feeling and what motiviated it.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 6, 2007 @ 5:08 pm |Reply

  73. Steffielynn, what you’re really saying is that you don’t understand God’s ways, therefore you believe He has a different way than what He says He does, b/c that’s the only way you can understand it. Do you not see this as trying to bring God down to your level of understanding? As trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? It wasn’t necessarily for us to understand why, but to acknowledge that He is God, and that whatever He declares to be will be. And if He says He will send people to hell for their beliefs (incorrect, or lack of), then why is it hard to believe He will do it? He didn’t HAVE to send Jesus to die for our sins, so we might be able to live with Him – He CHOSE to do so, b/c He loves us. Hell, and people going there, doesn’t mean He doesn’t love us, it just means there are consequences for actions. And in this day and age, people don’t like to think of consequences for their actions.

    Scripture says hell exists, and that people will go there, Steffielynn. Despite what Mormonism says.

    Comment by Brad — November 6, 2007 @ 5:28 pm |Reply

  74. Yes, Brad there are consequences, but the punishment will fit the crime. That is why three degrees of glory makes SO much sense. Also, mormons do believe in Hell.

    Let me give you an example,

    My son was told not to eat candy before dinner, but he did it anyways, should I disipline him with a time out, or should I send him to the electric chair?

    Also, I have no idea how you could think that I am bringing God down to my level, you say this because I do not agree with YOUR beliefs? I say ALL the time I will not understand things fully until I am there!

    What I DO know is that God loves ALL His children.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 5:45 pm |Reply

  75. Mormons don’t say that Hell doesn’t exist, they just have a different understanding of it. And there are consequences for your actions in Mormonism too. In fact that is another thing I find appealing about the LDS faith is that the consequences are more proportional. People who commit one sin aren’t thrust to hell with Satan. There are degrees of unrighteousness. This makes so much more sense than the stereotypical Christian concept of heaven and hell.

    Comment by Jay — November 6, 2007 @ 5:45 pm |Reply

  76. steffie

    You say alot ” What I DO know is that God loves ALL His children.”

    What actually are we supposed to derive from this ? What is its meaning ?

    God loves us so much .. Thankyou …..

    Is that the message of mormonism or are their strings attached ?

    When my missionaries told me that I told them Thankyou is that it ? But really they were trying to say ” No… You have to Join the church ” ! But were trying to word it differently although thats what they meant ….

    The real message is ..

    ” Without being a Temple Recommend Mormon God does not want us back with him “

    Comment by elder joseph — November 6, 2007 @ 8:06 pm |Reply

  77. No EJ what I mean when I say this, is that God loves ALL His children, whether they be Muslim, Atheists, Christians, Mormons, Buddists, Baptists, Catholics, etc.

    He doesn’t love anyone more or anyone less, just as I love my children equally. He even loves those who make REALLY bad choices. He is loving kind and just, He knows whats in our hearts, I believe is if you have a true and sincere heart no matter what religion you belong to He will judge you BY your heart, not by your religion. That’s what I mean.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 8:21 pm |Reply

  78. But if what you believe in your heart is wrong, how does that not justify punishment, according to what God has said? If I sincerely believe in my heart that it’s Saturday, and I sincerely don’t want to go to work, but in reality it is Friday, I can’t just not show up, even though I sincerely believed it was Saturday. B/c in reality, it is Friday, and there are consequences if I don’t show up. My sincerity of belief has nothing to do with reality. My boss won’t look at me and say “it’s OK, I know you sincerely believed it was Saturday, so no problem.”

    That’s a flawed line of thinking.

    God does love all of us, I’m not disputing that for a second. But He will discipline us if we have not accepted His teachings, no matter our sincerity of our incorrect beliefs.

    Comment by Brad — November 6, 2007 @ 8:34 pm |Reply

  79. steffie

    ” He will judge you BY your heart, not by your religion. That’s what I mean.”

    I sympathise with you but according to the LDS church we are judged as to whether we have obeyed the LDS church system of laws and ordainances ….

    I believe you and Brad will be in no different a place than me after death 🙂 Don’t worry cos I should do ok ! 🙂

    Comment by elder joseph — November 6, 2007 @ 9:10 pm |Reply

  80. Steffie,

    There are those that will try to use a secular work week and compare it to the eternities in an attempt to prove you wrong. That is not a valid comparison, so don’t give it any credence.

    Also, I want you to give each of your children a test. Make it a very difficult multiple choice test, with hundreds of possible answers to each test.

    If one of them fails this test, I want you to condemn them to hell for eternity. This is not a time out, not even a really long time out…say of 4,000 years, but for eternity.

    I want you to do this because this is what a true loving parent would do.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 6, 2007 @ 9:39 pm |Reply

  81. That should be hundreds of possible answers to each question.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 6, 2007 @ 9:41 pm |Reply

  82. Brad, I feel sorry for all the people in the world who don’t know about the gospel, those who were not choosen like me to live in a country where I have the freedom to choose what religion I belong to, it’s sad that they will burn in Hell forever, but hey they have to accept the consequences for their actions…..

    Oh wait, That’s YOUR line of thinking, not mine!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 10:15 pm |Reply

  83. Bishop Rick,

    Good analogy, it actually makes sense 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 6, 2007 @ 10:17 pm |Reply

  84. I like how Mormon theology takes into account all the people that have never even heard about Jesus. It gives them a chance to hear the message and accept or reject it. (Even though I have problems with LDS history and scriptures, I still admire a lot about it).

    I once asked a non-LDS Christian how his church took those people into account and he said they didn’t have any thought about that, but that everyone knows good from bad in this life and they would be judged according to how good they lived their life. The only problem is that does away with the argument that only people that accept Christ as their Savior will be saved. Plus if that is true, why would we be spreading the gospel of Jesus into the world. Why not just teach everyone to be kind and good? The truth is that the LDS Church is the only one that takes these people into account and I find that very surprising.

    Comment by Jay — November 6, 2007 @ 10:30 pm |Reply

  85. Jay

    Its a good point you bring up about LDS beleiving in redemption for those who never heard the gospel via it being taught after death and also then inevitable baptisms etc via Proxy Ordainances .

    although just because other religions never had an official teaching/answer about it , it doesn’t mean that we will all be taught mormonism and polygamy after death .

    some things are best left unknown rather than some of the answers Joseph Smith conjured up .he saw the opportunity and gap in a religious market …

    It just shows how Joseph Smith was prepared to stick an answer to every , thought , question , controversy, mystery etc which turned up over religion … he even answered whyb we have blacks and whites through his cusre teaching assuming we were all white to start with .but that doesn’ adrress the other skin colours , chinese , indians etc , although Apostle Peterson taught less valiancy explained their dire situation at birth ..

    He even tried to answewr where the Indians came from and that looks like a great blunder now we all use our common sense about it and evidence …

    He even tried to answer why there wwas polygamy in the old testament and look at the subsequent Mayhem and destruction, strife, tragedy and even his own death he unleashed as a result of that one ..

    He applied black skin to the biblical mark of cain and the following 150 years testify’s to that blunder and nonsense !

    He even answered where God resides ! lol Somewher near Kolob ! hahaha

    There was nothing he wasn’t going to put an answer to.

    All we need is another one like him to put an answer to all these timless questions and another religion can be born .

    Troble is with all Joseph Smith’s answers we now have an explosion of other questions .

    My favorite one being , If God has a body Of Flesh and Bone ( wives too I presume ) How is it they produce Spirits in CK ? 🙂

    The other he answered is where God comes from ….

    So If God was once a man and lived on an earth and was exhalted to be God .How is it Jesus is God before he came for a body or got Exhalted himself ? He was already God from the beginning .This is actually what all the other Christians believe .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 6, 2007 @ 11:01 pm |Reply

  86. I’ll have to correct you on one point. Joseph Smith didn’t come up with the cursed black myth. We have early Christianity to thank for that. That concept was well established before Joseph Smith’s time, he merely adopted the teaching and later LDS leaders expanded it with the valiancy myth (Joseph Smith did not teach this).

    By the way, its easy to come up with answers, it’s harder to have them make sense like Joseph Smith did.

    Comment by Jay — November 7, 2007 @ 1:03 am |Reply

  87. Bishop Rick did you get the email I sent, I sent it from a different address from the one you sent to.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 7, 2007 @ 1:11 am |Reply

  88. Don’t be discouraged.

    People like Joseph are just trying to fight what they think is evil in the church.

    The doctrines he struggles with are not easy ones for anyone.

    Remember the apostle Paul thought he was doing God a favor for fighting against the Christians before Jesus helped him to stop kicking against the pricks.

    Joseph, if you read this, just ask yourself this one question — how do you compare to Christ.

    He is the measuring stick, not Joseph Smith or Brigham young.

    My guess is your having serious problems.

    Are you?

    Talk to you later!

    Gary:)

    Comment by GentleGiantAmI — November 7, 2007 @ 7:06 am |Reply

  89. Steffie,

    There are those that will try to use a multiple choice test and compare it to the eternities in an attempt to make their point. That is not a valid comparison, so don’t give it any credence.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 1:38 pm |Reply

  90. “Brad, I feel sorry for all the people in the world who don’t know about the gospel, those who were not choosen like me to live in a country where I have the freedom to choose what religion I belong to, it’s sad that they will burn in Hell forever, but hey they have to accept the consequences for their actions…..” (Steffielynn)

    The Bible is clear – all will have their chance, and all of us are without excuse, b/c everything God created screams out that their is a Savior. Read Romans 1. I don’t know how the people will know (though it is our job to evangelize them, I suppose), but they WILL know. Again, when you say they don’t, you’re bringing God’s ability down to your level of understanding, something you do frequently, to try to “make sense” of what you don’t understand. Some things are not for us to understand, but just to accept. We don’t go to hell b/c we don’t know, we go b/c we are sinners who don’t accept what the Bible says.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 1:42 pm |Reply

  91. “I like how Mormon theology takes into account all the people that have never even heard about Jesus. It gives them a chance to hear the message and accept or reject it. (Even though I have problems with LDS history and scriptures, I still admire a lot about it).” (Jay)

    “I like” – that’s the basis for a lot of Mormons and why they “like” the LDS faith, b/c it appeals to them. Forget that it’s not right, that it’s leaders can be shown to be fraudulent, that history and archaelogy and linguistics don’t back it up – we “like it”, therefore we’ll believe it. I “like” the concepts of Scientology, that we’re each in charge of ourselves, and reality and truth are what we make of it. It would be nice to be in charge of us, wouldn’t it? But just b/c it appeals to me, doesn’t make it true. You have to accept or reject not based on feelings – that’s where many Mormons go wrong.

    “I once asked a non-LDS Christian how his church took those people into account and he said they didn’t have any thought about that, but that everyone knows good from bad in this life and they would be judged according to how good they lived their life. The only problem is that does away with the argument that only people that accept Christ as their Savior will be saved. Plus if that is true, why would we be spreading the gospel of Jesus into the world. Why not just teach everyone to be kind and good? The truth is that the LDS Church is the only one that takes these people into account and I find that very surprising.” (Jay)

    Ask 10 Christians (LDS aren’t Christians) that same question, you may get 10 answers, so you can’t rely on what 1 of them said to you to be representative of what is believed in general. The Bible shows one way to Heaven, through Jesus Christ, but says that all men are without excuse, therefore, through some means, they will have the ability and opportunity to accept. Doesn’t mean we have to know exactly how, but we do need to work to evangelize them. The real truth is – that the LDS church is false, but certainly is not the “only one” that takes “these people” into account.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 1:48 pm |Reply

  92. Jay, what Smith said does not make sense, if you use the Bible as your basis. However, if one was to interpret the Bible to support their delusions, and come up with other “scriptures” to also offer support, then I suppose to that person and those who followed him, it might make sense. But it doesn’t make it correct, by any stretch.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 1:51 pm |Reply

  93. Brad

    The problem with your arguments is that you don’t seem to know or understand the history and origins behind the Bible. You just take it at face value, something very few Christian scholars do anymore.

    “I once asked a non-LDS Christian how his church took those people into account and he said they didn’t have any thought about that, but that everyone knows good from bad in this life and they would be judged according to how good they lived their life.”

    This is actually even the official view of the Catholic Chruch after Vatican II as well most Christian Scholars of Theology. I would recommend you read the book “When Religion Turns Evil Author Charles Kimball,”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 7, 2007 @ 3:05 pm |Reply

  94. CoventryRM,

    On the contrary, I do understand the history and origins of the Bible. I’m not sure what you think that has to do with the validity of the arguments presented. The Mormons themselves lend creedence to the Bible (although I believe they interpret it terribly, they still hold to its authenticity), so taking it “at face value” should be a foregone conclusion, when discussing with Mormons.

    I also completely disagree with your last statement. It is way too broad to be completely true. For one, I could care less what the Catholic church’s official position is on it, especially given that the official beliefs of the Catholic church are much different than evangelical Christian beliefs. Additionally, you would have to define “most Christian Scholars of Theology” for us to discuss that. I know many who would disagree with your statement.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 3:13 pm |Reply

  95. “so taking it “at face value” should be a foregone conclusion, when discussing with Mormons.”

    You will never be able to make in roads to most TBM’s by quoting Bible verses etc. The belief there being it has been translated to many times to be a reliable source accept were the B of M can back it up or clarify.

    My biased definition of “scholar” is someone willing to think out of the box, open to the information and not just setting out to prove they are right, but genuinely concerned with facts of evidence regardless of where it takes them. My opinion is that Christian scholars that still thump the traditional Christian drum, throw out or spin anything that sheds doubt on thier tradition.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 7, 2007 @ 3:30 pm |Reply

  96. Brad,
    Actually most LDS members would say “I know” not “I like”. I say I like because I no longer feel comfortable saying I know, but that is my own struggle.

    But just b/c it appeals to me, doesn’t make it true. You have to accept or reject not based on feelings – that’s where many Mormons go wrong.

    How do you base your decision to accept or reject something on? From your comments it sounds like you use pure logic and the Holy Ghost plays a miniscule if any role. How do you know you are not being deceived? How do you know what you believe is true?

    I do not accept “because the bible says it”. The bible, although beautiful in many aspects, contains so much room for interpretation that it renders it pretty much useless for proving which brand of Christianity is true. Universalists try to say that Christian churches basically agree so therefore if you believe in the Trinity, the bible, and Jesus you are ok. The problem is that the rest of Christianity hasn’t got the message. Many of them still condemn other denominations to hell because they have slight differences in belief all based on their interpretation of biblical scripture. So I ask, how do you define what is true or not, if not with the help of the Holy Ghost?

    Forget that it’s not right, that it’s leaders can be shown to be fraudulent, that history and archaelogy and linguistics don’t back it up

    How many fraudulent leaders are there in Christianity? I will venture to say that there are more there than in the LDS faith. (this is only based on the fact that the LDS Church is vastly younger, not that it is any better).

    It always amazes me how people condemn the Book of Mormon because of the lack of evidence to back it up. Much of the evidence against it is based on the same science that they condemn time and time again. I am taken back when someone brings up the DNA thing because most of these people don’t even believe in evolution, yet they tout the DNA evidence against the Book of Mormon as though it is valid.

    … you can’t rely on what 1 of them [Christians] said to you to be representative of what is believed in general.

    Your point is a very valid one. Remember this when someone brings up blood atonement and Mary having sex with God both thoughts of Brigham Young a single Mormon. The majority of Mormons do not believe these things (or many other of the teachings of Brigham Young).

    The Bible shows one way to Heaven, through Jesus Christ, but says that all men are without excuse, therefore, through some means, they will have the ability and opportunity to accept. Doesn’t mean we have to know exactly how…

    Please provide the scriptural references that you claim show that all men are without excuse and that somehow they will have the opportunity to accept.

    The real truth is – that the LDS church is false, but certainly is not the “only one” that takes “these people” into account.

    What other church takes people that lived before Jesus into account?

    … what Smith said does not make sense, if you use the Bible as your basis.

    I respectfully think your wrong. There is no twisting or changing of scripture needed to find support for much of LDS doctrine, it’s all there in plain English. Here are some of Joseph Smith’s teachings that are supported by the bible.

    – Concept of Godhead (God, Jesus and Holy Ghost one in purpose, but separate beings)
    – God and Jesus have perfect glorified bodies of flesh and bone.
    – We can become like God.
    – Priesthood is needed to govern the church. It is given by one having the authority given to him by God.
    – Baptism is required for salvation.
    – Spirits without the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life will have the opportunity before they are judged after this life.

    If these are all due to Joseph Smith’s delusional interpretations of the bible, then I really fail to see how it can be a reliable text unless you have the guidance of the Holy Ghost (a.k.a. feelings).

    LDS aren’t Christians

    This has been parroted so often that you think the ones that say it would get tired of how trite it sounds. If you ask anyone, outside of the few that actually believe this, if Mormons are Christian they will agree that they are. All that is required to be Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and follow the teachings he left behind. If you do this you are one of Christ’s disciples and a Christian.

    Comment by Jay — November 7, 2007 @ 4:00 pm |Reply

  97. “You will never be able to make in roads to most TBM’s by quoting Bible verses etc. The belief there being it has been translated to many times to be a reliable source accept were the B of M can back it up or clarify.” (CoventryRM)

    Which just goes to show what they understand about the Bible. The translation is easy to come by – it’s the interpretation that takes more work. They’re so hung up on the TRANSLation, that they don’t put enough work into getting the correct INTERPRETation. And to say that they only accept it if the BOM backs it up, is to really lend no creedence to the Bible at all. They’d be better of dismissing the Bible altogether, if they’re going to do that.

    “My biased definition of “scholar” is someone willing to think out of the box, open to the information and not just setting out to prove they are right, but genuinely concerned with facts of evidence regardless of where it takes them. My opinion is that Christian scholars that still thump the traditional Christian drum, throw out or spin anything that sheds doubt on thier tradition.” (CoventryRM)

    It works both ways, on both sides. Everyone puts their opinion into what they believe. It’s a fact of life. It really comes down to is your opinion supported by fact, or do you ignore fact for the sake of your opinion? Mormons ignore fact, for the sake of their opinion (in my opinion, of course :))

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 6:49 pm |Reply

  98. bold

    *bold*

    Sorry, just a test

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 6:59 pm |Reply

  99. Actually most LDS members would say “I know” not “I like”. I say I like because I no longer feel comfortable saying I know, but that is my own struggle.

    Which means you already have doubts, and ought to be looking elsewhere.

    How do you base your decision to accept or reject something on? From your comments it sounds like you use pure logic and the Holy Ghost plays a miniscule if any role. How do you know you are not being deceived? How do you know what you believe is true?

    Not at all. I base what I believe on the Bible, as God’s ONLY inspired Word to us. How do I know I’m not being deceived? I check to see if what I hear coincides with what the Bible teaches, just as it says it is good to do (Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”). If what I hear does not go along with the Bible, then you KNOW it isn’t true. Do I downplay the Holy Spirit? Not at all. He is my conscience, my guide to help me stay on the straight and narrow. And, He will never lead me down a path that would run contrary to the Bible, so if I feel one thing and the Bible says another, I can know that the “feeling” I have is not of the Spirit. It’s really not that hard.

    I do not accept “because the bible says it”. The bible, although beautiful in many aspects, contains so much room for interpretation that it renders it pretty much useless for proving which brand of Christianity is true. Universalists try to say that Christian churches basically agree so therefore if you believe in the Trinity, the bible, and Jesus you are ok. The problem is that the rest of Christianity hasn’t got the message. Many of them still condemn other denominations to hell because they have slight differences in belief all based on their interpretation of biblical scripture. So I ask, how do you define what is true or not, if not with the help of the Holy Ghost?

    Pretty much useless? Are you kidding? That’s typical of a religion that puts more emphasis on it’s own teachings, rather than the Bible’s. There’s no “brand” of Christianity – there’s “Christian”, and there’s “non-Christian.” You either have it, or you don’t. I don’t believe Mormons have it. As I’ve said before, you don’t go to hell b/c of slight doctrinal differences, but you must have your core beliefs right, or your beliefs themselves aren’t based in what they should be. You can arrive at the correct interpretation of Scripture by interpreting verses in light of the entire Bible, not just in light of what you think they mean. Many people do not know how to do this, either b/c they weren’t taught how, or b/c they don’t care to know. You can’t play up relying on the Holy Spirit so much, that you ignore God’s written Word to us.

    How many fraudulent leaders are there in Christianity? I will venture to say that there are more there than in the LDS faith. (this is only based on the fact that the LDS Church is vastly younger, not that it is any better).

    Granted, we have our Jim Bakkers, our Jimmy Swaggarts, our Ted Haggards, etc… I’m not disputing that evangelical Christians don’t have well-known people who have sinned. But the Evangelical church does not have a “leader”, per se, in that it doesn’t have an established hierarchy that pretends to be God’s link to us. None of those I’ve mentioned have tried to lay claim to being a “Prophet, Seer and Relevator”, as the LDS Prophet does. And when the foundation of your faith is based upon “further revelation” told by your first prophet who is known to be a fraud, that’s a WHOLE different story than just saying that Christian’s have fraudulent people.

    It always amazes me how people condemn the Book of Mormon because of the lack of evidence to back it up. Much of the evidence against it is based on the same science that they condemn time and time again. I am taken back when someone brings up the DNA thing because most of these people don’t even believe in evolution, yet they tout the DNA evidence against the Book of Mormon as though it is valid.

    You’re comparing apples to oranges here. I can correctly use science to show Mormonism a fraud, yet still not agree with what all “scientists” believe. All science is not condemned, only the science that clearly is based on supposition and the need to prove something true, therefore supposition based on pre-drawn conclusions are made, to prove those pre-drawn conclusions. That’s not scholarly in the least. You trying to bring this up as an excuse for the evidence against (or lack of evidence to support) Mormonism is ridiculous.

    Your point is a very valid one. Remember this when someone brings up blood atonement and Mary having sex with God both thoughts of Brigham Young a single Mormon. The majority of Mormons do not believe these things (or many other of the teachings of Brigham Young).

    I’ll remember it – see my comment above about your LEADERS who are supposed to be the “Prophet, Seer and Relevator” of God not being able to be relied upon. Are you trying to say that BY was the ONLY one who believed that? That’s putting your head in the sand. How can you belong to a religion where BY was one of the chief key members, a prophet called by God according to the dictates of your religion, yet you don’t even give his beliefs creedence b/c you don’t think they were correct? If your own Prophet couldn’t get things right, why do you think he should ever have been a Prophet in the first place? Did he misunderstand God? Did God make a mistake? Which is it?

    Please provide the scriptural references that you claim show that all men are without excuse and that somehow they will have the opportunity to accept.

    Romans 1:18-20 “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

    Romans 2:12-15 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)”

    John 1:9 “The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.”

    Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

    2 Peter 3:9 “Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    Shall I go on? The Bible’s pretty clear, both explicity and implicitly, that we are without excuse, and have the opportunity to accept. Do you believe the Bible is clear that we will be held accountable for accepting or rejecting God’s plan of salvation? If you read the Bible, you will see that we clearly are. So, if we all will be held accountable for our choice, does that not clearly show that all will be able to make that choice, one way or the other?

    What other church takes people that lived before Jesus into account?

    Evangelical Christianity does, for sure (no, Mormons don’t have what they think is the monopoly on this). Look at Hebrews 9:25-26 “Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Look at everyone in Hebrews 11 – do you think they went to Heaven? The Bible says they did – but how, if Christ hadn’t come yet? They lived before Jesus, so how was this possible. What does the Bible say? Look at Abraham – his faith was credited to him as righteousness. It was b/c of his faith in God, and what God promised him would happen through Jesus, that he was saved. The OT looks towards the cross, the NT looks back at it. It’s still Jesus who saves.

    I respectfully think your wrong. There is no twisting or changing of scripture needed to find support for much of LDS doctrine, it’s all there in plain English.

    What? Are you kidding? If you really think this, you TRULY have not investigated it very hard, or your scholarship in studying the Bible, through an objective lens, is extremely poor.

    Here are some of Joseph Smith’s teachings that are supported by the bible.

    – Concept of Godhead (God, Jesus and Holy Ghost one in purpose, but separate beings)

    No way. The Trinity (not as Mormons understand it, but as Evangelical Christians understand it) is clearly taught in Scripture. Only through the constant misinterpretation and poor scholarship of the Mormon church, as well as Smith’s initial thoughts on the matter, have they arrived at this completely wrong concept.

    – God and Jesus have perfect glorified bodies of flesh and bone.

    Crazy. You’re not looking very hard – what about John 4:24, for example?

    – We can become like God.

    This is what Satan thought, and look where it got him. This is also what he tempted Adam & Eve with, and look where it got us. Ridiculous.

    – Priesthood is needed to govern the church. It is given by one having the authority given to him by God.

    Nope. We are ALL part of a “royal priesthood, a holy nation”, not just one of us, according to the Bible.

    – Baptism is required for salvation.

    Wrong again. A complete misinterpretation of the Scriptures I know that Mormons use (Mark 16:16, for example), in light of the ENTIRE Bible and what it says. Completely unsupportable as being REQUIRED for salvation (although it should be the first thing we do AFTER salvation, I might add).

    – Spirits without the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life will have the opportunity before they are judged after this life.

    Nowhere is this found in the Bible – nowhere. I challenge you to show me where you think this is, and if you tell me where I think you will, you need to have REALLY studied it in light of it’s historical, linguistic and contextual meaning, or it will get destroyed.

    If these are all due to Joseph Smith’s delusional interpretations of the bible, then I really fail to see how it can be a reliable text unless you have the guidance of the Holy Ghost (a.k.a. feelings).

    How so? Just b/c Joseph Smith tried to get the Bible to say what he wanted it to say, doesn’t mean that it really did. Again, as I mentioned earlier, I’m not discounting what the Holy Spirit says – just that it won’t go contrary to Scripture.

    This has been parroted so often that you think the ones that say it would get tired of how trite it sounds. If you ask anyone, outside of the few that actually believe this, if Mormons are Christian they will agree that they are. All that is required to be Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and follow the teachings he left behind. If you do this you are one of Christ’s disciples and a Christian.

    I’m not concerned with what “anyone” has to say about it, but what is really true. There’s a lot of uneducated and misinformed “anyones” out there, who don’t know their religious ABC’s from their head. I agree that to be a Christian means to accept Christ as your Savior and follow His teachings. I don’t believe Mormons do this, b/c the “Jesus” they believe in, the whole religion they believe in, is contrary to the Bible, unfortunately.

    Comment by Brad — November 7, 2007 @ 7:50 pm |Reply

  100. Hi Gary
    ( GentleGiantAmI) . Thanks for coming to this blog . Steffie will be pleased I invited a fellow church member .

    I appreciate your kindness on you tube to me while I am a bit harsh myself . I need to learn to calm a bit . 🙂

    Yes I have big difficulties with The Early Church .For me Joseph Smith was just a tyrant and abuser of people .

    You mentioned likening me to the Apostle Paul , but I’m not angry at New Testament christianity as I read about it or the fact that the Jewish Belief seemed to be getting dissmantled as The Apostle Paul ( Saul at that time ) saw .

    i’m alerting peole to what I see as a Dysfunctional religious cult and the way it brings in members through a false version of events . This causes problems in the future for many converts and families as the church can’t hide its true history like it once did …

    If I would have baptised learning the sanitised version and later found out about The head in the hat , polygamy , blacks etc , I would have been VERY angry …I don;t take kindly to misinformation and especially where it could take 10% of my income with no prospect for any redress afterawrds .. its simply wrong .

    Jay

    You said earlier on

    “I’ll have to correct you on one point. Joseph Smith didn’t come up with the cursed black myth.”

    You are right .In fact Joseph Smith never really came up with much as I can find nearly all his teachings scattered around in many other sources as well as his own enviroment and backyard ..

    Brad

    You said

    “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”.

    They were checking the Old Testament at least yes to see if what Paul said fits with it .Jesus ecen read the Old Testament and said it spoke of him ..

    How do you feel that you got your New Testament from The Early Catholic Church ? Do you believe they had the guidance or authority to select those letters and narratives which make up the New Testament . Could Evangelicals confirm from all the other Gospels and writings available at the time that The Catholic Church got the correct ones together. Was God guiding them or had they already gone into Apostasy ?

    Comment by elder joseph — November 7, 2007 @ 8:57 pm |Reply

  101. As I skimmed some of the most recent posts, I thought of a young man who came by my office yesterday to help me put something in a sidebar of my blog. We began talking about religious issues, and he said he had an idea for a blog about what Jesus actually said. He reminded me of popularity of the WWJD trend a few years back and said he’d like to start something called WDJS (What did Jesus say?) Our conversation comes to mind today with a different verb: What WOULD Jesus say if He could read all of this contentious argumentative? I think He’d be saddened. Didn’t He say that the second greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor as thyself? In my neck of the woods, that doesn’t mean being critical, derogatory, and downright abusive.

    For you who are so hung up on polygamy, again go back to Jacob, David, Solomon, Judah, and even Abraham. There are countless others, but because of your attitude and mindset, it would be pointless to name them. I just have to say, however, that as a person who teaches psychology in a community college, I know that the things that bug us about others the most are often the flaws and imperfections that we don’t or won’t recognize in ourselves. Anyone who’s taken an intro course is aware of this little fact.

    Comment by marlajayne — November 7, 2007 @ 9:30 pm |Reply

  102. Jay,

    Don’t waste your time with this bafoon. It is obvious from his comments that he knows nothing but thinks he knows everything. Everyone of his feeble arguments/claims can easily be refuted, but it is not worth the CPU cycles.

    Sorry Steffie.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 8, 2007 @ 12:59 am |Reply

  103. Jay

    I agree with Bishop Rick

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 1:30 am |Reply

  104. Brad

    “It works both ways, on both sides. Everyone puts their opinion into what they believe. It’s a fact of life. It really comes down to is your opinion supported by fact, or do you ignore fact for the sake of your opinion? ”

    The better question comes down will you change your opinion when facts don’t support it? From what I have seen your answer would be more inline of if they don’t then the facts must be wrong, you said

    “I’m not sure as to the exact age (I studied this once, but it’s been a while), but I know it is less than 10,000 years. Certainly not the millions as is believed by scientists.”

    I suppose it is flat too.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 1:54 am |Reply

  105. Sorry, I ve been super busy….

    Anyways, EJ…You actually invited a member???? I am so happy!!!!! Thanks!

    Gary, welcome to my blog, I hope to see more of you!

    Marlajayne, I must say I agree, He would probably not approve. I try my best to speak without contention, but it is hard sometimes, and I have not been doing a very good job lately!

    It’s difficult because it seems as though we all are very passionate about our very different beliefs, but I will try my best to make sure everything I say is something I feel Christ Himself would aprove of!!!! 🙂

    Thanks!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 3:07 am |Reply

  106. CoventryRM/B Rick,

    If they’re so easily defeated, then do so. The arguments come straight from the Bible.

    A lot of strong talk from you, but not much to back it up.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 2:51 pm |Reply

  107. Brad

    You believe the Earth is than 10k, what doesn’t make sense to me is one person of religious faith arguing with another’s religious faith. In most instances to hold on to this faith a person has to ignore facts. In your case the age of the Earth, I Believe LDS have the same issue though I think most have reconciled it in some other way and widely accept the fact the Earth is not less than 10k.

    Once you throw religious faith in the mix it seems discussing or debating is futile. In most cases with very few exceptions a person’s faith is going to be in that which they were brought up in or raised as. A few more will switch within their core faith like Steffie changing her style of Christianity.

    The only reason I even care or spend my time in discussion is because I feel there is a big movement that is dumbing down our society from people like yourself that what to teach things like ID and Creationism in schools, and even they have a bit more validity than you in that many of them accept the age of the Earth, but that God had a hand in it and we don’t totally understand it.

    It just seems absolutely ridiculous that if you are willing to completely ignore facts to maintain your God myth, that you would argue “facts” against someone else’s God myth. (People of faith don’t beat me up for using the word myth) It seems you could discuss philosophical views which would then cause you to just listen and consider and share, as then neither can really be right or wrong.

    The position the Catholic Church took at Vatican II should be an example to all, I don’t have the exact statement in from of me but I will paraphrase, They basically said that their official position was that salvation didn’t come exclusively through them, that anyone of any faith believed in God and strived to live a good life following God regardless of being Muslim, Jew etc. they would be saved. I wish more Churches would adapt this teaching. (LDS don’t jump on the bandwagon and claim you do, yours is called exaltation – celestial kingdom and I have to be LDS one way or another either in this life or the next to get there)

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 3:26 pm |Reply

  108. Coventry RM

    Wow, I agree!!!! I don’t understand how someone can criticize me for having faith, and they HAVE to have faith as well to believe what they do. Sounds hypocritical to me.

    Brad, do you have a 100% correct understanding of the bible?

    It seems many people believe in Christ because they are afraid of “burning in Hell”

    I believe in Christ because I Love Him and I just have a FEELING He really existed. Not because books speak of Him, not because if I don’t I will burn in Hell. It is faith alone for me. I know CoventryRM disagrees, as well as others, and that’s ok, It may not seem logical to them, and I can understand why. The feelings I have are not illogical though, not to me. I love my Heavenly Father, and in my heart I just KNOW He is real and I KNOW He loves me too, and it is a love far greater then I will ever understand 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 4:19 pm |Reply

  109. CoventryRM,

    What facts am I “ignoring”, to maintain my belief in God? I don’t believe there are any I’m “ignoring”, but if you are aware of any, please point them out. I’m not sure how this got on the age of the Earth, since I responded to Jay’s questions, none of which related to the age of the Earth. But I do hold to the Earth being less than 10k years old. I will try to find the study notes I had from some research I did awhile back, which showed (through the Bible) that that was the case.

    Shame on the Catholic church for that statement, by the way. That is ecumenical belief at it’s finest. They failed to define God, and misunderstand works (“living a good life”) in regards to salvation, among other things that statement does. I’m GLAD more churches don’t adopt that teaching, b/c it gives people a false sense that they are OK from an eternal perspective, when they’re not. It’s quite dangerous.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 4:19 pm |Reply

  110. Steffielynn,

    I don’t criticize you for HAVING faith, I think your faith is MISPLACED. Big difference. You’re relying way too much on what YOU feel is right. Dangerous territory.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 4:21 pm |Reply

  111. CoventryRM,

    “What facts am I “ignoring”, to maintain my belief in God? I don’t believe there are any I’m “ignoring”, but if you are aware of any, please point them out. I’m not sure how this got on the age of the Earth, since I responded to Jay’s questions, none of which related to the age of the Earth. But I do hold to the Earth being less than 10k years old. I will try to find the study notes I had from some research I did awhile back, which showed (through the Bible) that that was the case.”

    “What facts am I “ignoring”, – See above statment of age of the earth – Duh!

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 4:36 pm |Reply

  112. Coventry RM, be nice

    Brad,
    How can faith be misplaced? Faith is believing in something we cannot see and cannot touch, and cannot really understand, how can faith be misplaced if faith cannot be proven or denied?

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 4:46 pm |Reply

  113. Retracts the “Duh”

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 5:02 pm |Reply

  114. You didn’t chastize BR for calling him a bafoon, figured it was fair game. 🙂

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 5:03 pm |Reply

  115. CoventryRM,

    How can you say I’m ignoring any “facts”, when you yourself don’t give any facts to support your position (that the Earth is more than 10k years old). What are the “facts” you have to show this, that I’m ignoring?

    Steffielynn,

    Faith (itself) cannot be proven or denied, b/c “faith” isn’t tangible. It is an act, a state of belief. But often times, we can use what God gave us (our minds, our ability to reason and study and understand) to arrive at conclusions. You ignore anything contrary to Mormonism, relying on your “faith” that it’s true. You’re ignoring a lot of key information that runs contrary to the LDS belief system.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 5:05 pm |Reply

  116. I thought he was talking about you, or maybe EJ

    Just kidding 🙂

    Brad seems to get all of us a little riled up!

    Brad,

    I have not always been Mormon, I was a christian, well still am, but we won’t go there.

    Anyways I used to be like you, but I changed.

    I do not ignore facts, and I would still like to know if you think you have a 100% correct knowledge of the bible.

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 5:25 pm |Reply

  117. That’s because I said “Sorry…” afterwards.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 8, 2007 @ 5:31 pm |Reply

  118. No, I don’t believe I have a 100% correct knowledge of the Bible. I don’t believe anyone can.

    But I do believe there are appropriate and inappropriate ways to interpret Scripture, in order to ensure that the interpretation holds up in light of the entire Bible, historically, linguistically and contextually. And I believe that the interpretations I use (which are not just mine, but shared by many) are correct. And I believe Mormons completely misinterpret the Bible, to support their own viewpoints.

    You didn’t used to be like me – if you were, you wouldn’t have changed to what you are now.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 6:05 pm |Reply

  119. You really want me to show the facts behind the Earth being older than 10k ????????

    Just pick up any book on sceince or go to a museum.

    Comment by conventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 6:52 pm |Reply

  120. That’s your facts? Science books or museums? I guess I should have expected as such from you, you haven’t been real forthcoming with much else, why start now?

    I guess you ASSUME that the books are correct, that there’s no way they could make assumptions that back up their claims, b/c their claims need to be right to support their viewpoint. Of course, that’s really not that much different than Mormonism, now, is it?

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 7:01 pm |Reply

  121. Brad,

    There are many interpretations, what I would like to know is if you agree that you do not understand the bible with 100% accuracy, then how can you say I am wrong and your are right? How is your interpretation “correct” and mine incorrect? Especially if you yourself admit that NO ONE can have a 100% correct understanding of it!

    And Yes I really was like you, probably NOT as onesided, but I really once believed the things you write on here. Thankfully I have changed, that’s what the gospel does to you! My heart has softened, I no longer judge people based on what religion they are. I no longer fear death, I look forward to meeting my Heavenly Father, and living a very happily ever after with my family 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 8:20 pm |Reply

  122. Steffie

    I think figured out why EJ’s post went to moderation and it seems we were being blocked. When you post a link I am sure you have a filter so that people aren’t posting porn or something

    Comment by conventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 8:32 pm |Reply

  123. Steffielynn,

    I can say that your beliefs are incorrect, based on your interpretations and your beliefs themselves, which do not conform to the Bible. Just b/c I said that I, nor anyone, can have 100% accuracy with Biblical interpretation, doesn’t mean that we can’t have ANY accuracy. In fact, I believe we can get pretty close. Just not perfect.

    You look at the “correctness” of the interpretation by judging it against what the rest of the Bible says. If it holds up everywhere, in proper text, context and language, then it is correct. If it doesn’t, then it is incorrect. In nearly every dealing I have ever had with Mormons, the interpretations used to support their beliefs DO NOT hold up in light of the entire Bible. I gave some examples on this and other blogs before, including what Jay wrote earlier, which can be completely shown to not hold up.

    Read 1 John 2:19, Steffielynn. If you had “really” been a Christian, if you had really been like me, then you never would have left. I’m sorry, but you did leave, and you are now Mormon. We are not alike in that respect, b/c I have never left. Big difference.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 8:42 pm |Reply

  124. Brad

    I found a link that is about your speed. It is kids online resource called kidsolr.com it is like a kindergarten college a good place for you to start they have all sort of cool fossils and evidence of dinosaurs and stuff. Even really cool articles like this one

    “Geologists use radioactive age dating methods to determine the ages of rocks. Certain atoms in the rock spontaneously change into different atoms over time through radioactive decay. By taking a rock (meteorite) apart atom by atom and finding out how many atoms have decayed, and knowing the rate of change (or half-life of the atom) scientists can work out how many years have passed since the rock formed. This is a tremendous simplification, but basically it is somewhat like counting rings in a tree to see how old it is. Many meteorites age-date at about 4.6 billion years. This is the currently accepted age of the Earth.”

    Comment by conventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 8:42 pm |Reply

  125. You thought I was trying to really block you this whole time? I told you I wasn’t blocking you, i’m hurt.

    How did you discover this? Are you going to give Brad a link to show him the earth is older then 10,000 years? Or are you trying to send us porn?? 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 8:47 pm |Reply

  126. Of course, there has NEVER been any controversy over the acceptance of the different kinds of radiometric dating, has there? But I’m sure you buy in hook, line and sinker, Coventry.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 8:49 pm |Reply

  127. Yeah I know it is just a big conspiracy to keep us out of Heaven or some really cool trick by Satan himself.

    Comment by conventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 8:55 pm |Reply

  128. If the earth is older than 6000 years , it doesn’t look good for bible believers who claim its only 6000 years ago since Adam and Eve .

    Its not good for Mormonism either .

    I used to believe that myself , now I feel a little embarrassed .

    Belief is like Love .You never think you will fall out of Love 🙂

    Thats the beauty of it .

    Comment by elder joseph — November 8, 2007 @ 9:06 pm |Reply

  129. The LDS have been smart enough though to start coming up with ways to explain it and accept and reconcile it. Others just want to still believe the Earth is flat.

    Comment by conventryRM — November 8, 2007 @ 9:09 pm |Reply

  130. Brad, you said

    “I can say that your beliefs are incorrect, based on your interpretations and your beliefs themselves, which do not conform to the Bible”

    Well by MY interpretations they DO go along with the bible!!! 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 9:18 pm |Reply

  131. Problem is, Steffielynn, your interpretations can be SHOWN to be incorrect, b/c they implode when viewed in light of the entire Bible. So just b/c they’re your interpretations, that just makes them your opinion – doesn’t make them correct.

    Sorry.

    Comment by Brad — November 8, 2007 @ 9:26 pm |Reply

  132. Right, and I feel the same about YOUR interpretation

    sorry 🙂

    Comment by steffielynn — November 8, 2007 @ 9:48 pm |Reply

  133. Anyone see a pattern here? Does anyone feel as if they are kicking against the pricks?

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 8, 2007 @ 10:08 pm |Reply

  134. Difference is, Steffielynn, that you “feel” the same way about mine, but mine don’t implode when viewed in light of the entire Bible. Only yours do.

    That’s just poor scholarship of the Bible, not just your opinion.

    Big difference. But you are choosing to ignore it, b/c you “feel” that Mormonism is correct.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 1:32 pm |Reply

  135. So because my interpretation is different you consider it poor scholarship? This makes no sense Brad.

    I find that mormons know much more about the bible then other christians. They study it from a VERY early age. They are well versed in the scriptures.

    Personally I have learned SOOOOOO much more since joining the LDS church. None of the churches I had attended throughout my life ever encouraged me to read like the LDS church does.

    So I believe you are mistaken

    Comment by steffielynn — November 9, 2007 @ 1:43 pm |Reply

  136. Steffie

    You are clearly not talking to a person that even understands the word scholarship or rational thinking for that matter.

    Brad thinks that ALL scientists are lying. Like Bishop Rick said earlier, don’t waste your time with this one.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 2:33 pm |Reply

  137. Difference is, Steffielynn, that you “feel” the same way about mine, but mine don’t implode when viewed in light of the entire Bible. Only yours do.

    That’s just poor scholarship of the Bible, not just your opinion.

    Brad,
    It appears that if someone doesn’t agree with you they are idiots that don’t understand the Bible as well as you. I’m sure you’re an intelligent person, but you have a lot yet to learn if you think you have Christianity figured out to the point that you can tell who’s interpretations are right. In my spare time I’ve been piecing together a response to your last post to me, including bible references. I’m sorry it’s taking so long; I just have very little time at the present. Rest assured that the statements I made can be supported by the Bible. I know you will not agree with me because you will say that I’m taking the scripture too literally or to no literally enough it’s one of those things that people, even those you would define as Christian, will always argue about. I also understand that you will claim that they scriptures I cite are taken out of context, another common argument used by LDS and non-LDS alike when their views are challenged. That’s OK! I understand that the Bible isn’t perfect, so it’s understandable that you interpret things vastly different than others.

    Comment by Jay — November 9, 2007 @ 3:05 pm |Reply

  138. So because my interpretation is different you consider it poor scholarship? This makes no sense Brad.

    I agree, that would make no sense. But that’s not what I said. I said that your interpretations don’t hold up in light of the entire Bible, i.e. they’re wrong. That’s what makes your scholarship poor.

    I find that mormons know much more about the bible then other christians. They study it from a VERY early age. They are well versed in the scriptures.

    How can you definitively say that Mormons know much more? It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve read it, it matters whether you understand its proper meanings. If you don’t, you may as well not have read it, regardless of the age at which you start. Well-versed in the Scriptures means they can accurately interpret it, and those interpretations are iron-clad and hold up to the test of all Scripture. Most Mormon interpretations DO NOT.

    Personally I have learned SOOOOOO much more since joining the LDS church. None of the churches I had attended throughout my life ever encouraged me to read like the LDS church does.

    So I believe you are mistaken

    Again, it’s not about reading, it’s about understanding, and further, about making sure you’re understanding is correct. You are working under the assumption that your interpretations are correct, based upon what you think, what you’ve been taught, what you’ve heard, etc… Have you ever approached a subject objectively, with the mindset that maybe, just maybe, the Mormon church interpretation is completely wrong, and let somebody show you why? Or are you so bought into what you believe, that you’ll believe it no matter if it is shown to be wrong or not? That’s not a faithful believer, that’s a blind believer, Steffielynn. I’ve examined both sides, and the Mormon point of view simply doesn’t hold water.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 3:51 pm |Reply

  139. You are clearly not talking to a person that even understands the word scholarship or rational thinking for that matter.

    Brad thinks that ALL scientists are lying. Like Bishop Rick said earlier, don’t waste your time with this one.

    CoventryRM, what makes you say that? What is your definition of “poor scholarship” of the Bible? What is your definition of rational thinking? What is your definition of a baseless argument, for that matter? Mine is someone who constantly likes to talk big and blow smoke, but when the rubber meets the road and he’s asked for proof, he tries to talk big still, but offers no evidence, nor is even willing to debate it. Sounds a lot like you, to me.

    And when did I say ALL scientists were lying, or even that any of them were actually lying at all? You twist words to what you want them to say, all the while not offering anything to support your side of the argument. You’re twisting in the wind, CoventryRM. A lot of smoke, but no fire.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 3:55 pm |Reply

  140. It appears that if someone doesn’t agree with you they are idiots that don’t understand the Bible as well as you.

    No, but if they don’t hold the proper understanding of Scripture, then their understanding is definitely incorrect. It’s not about agreeing with ME, it’s about agreeing with what the Bible meant to say.

    I’m sure you’re an intelligent person, but you have a lot yet to learn if you think you have Christianity figured out to the point that you can tell who’s interpretations are right.

    You, and most others on here, approach the Bible as if we can’t know what it truly means, as if there’s not one CORRECT interpretation of the Bible. I agree, there are many different interpretations that CAN be made, but that doesn’t make ALL of them correct. We CAN know what the correct interpretation is for much of Scripture, but it does take a lot of work, and more than just a cursory reading of the English Bible to gain that understanding. You have to look at what the original words (in Greek/Hebrew/Latin) would have meant to their original audience. You have to take into account the historical context, to see what the practices of certain churches were (for example, knowing what the Corinthian church did and didn’t do, as a historical fact, helps explain a lot of what that book means). You have to take into account the context of each word, each verse, not just in light of what it meant as it was said, but how it applies and fits in with the whole of Scripture. It’s difficult, and it takes a lot of time and diligent study, but the true meanings can be known. But it doesn’t happen just from reading a passage in English and saying “I know what it means”, just like that. It’s not that easy, but most people try to make it so.

    All non-Christians seem to know 2 sets of Scripture – “God is love” and “judge not, lest ye be judged.” Problem is, they use those to define what they think God is, and what they want Him to be. Further problem is, though He is love, He’s also sovereign and just and vengeful. But people don’t like to focus on those verses, b/c it doesn’t fit their concept of what they WANT God to be. So they ignore them. Then, when any kind of talk concerning hell is brought up, what do they say? “God is love”, says the Bible, so He won’t send anyone to hell. See my point? The overall study isn’t there, so they’re not getting the overall message. It’s an easy trap to fall into.

    In my spare time I’ve been piecing together a response to your last post to me, including bible references. I’m sorry it’s taking so long; I just have very little time at the present. Rest assured that the statements I made can be supported by the Bible. I know you will not agree with me because you will say that I’m taking the scripture too literally or to no literally enough it’s one of those things that people, even those you would define as Christian, will always argue about.

    I look forward to your response. I’m not saying I have everything right, Jay, despite what others on this blog claim. I am always open to new interpretations, to see how they fit with Scripture. But I’m not so open to think that all interpretations are correct. If we both read passage X, and I get interpretation A from that, and you get interpretation Z from that, do you think we’re both right? I don’t – I don’t believe that God meant 2 opposite things from the same passage for a second. To say it can be interpreted differently is true – to say they’re both CORRECT, is another thing entirely. But I do look forward to going over your Scriptural responses. Heck, Jay, it may be that I’m wrong. But it takes more than just “feeling” I’m wrong to show me that – the interpretation has to make sense, and hold up in light of all Scripture.

    I also understand that you will claim that they scriptures I cite are taken out of context, another common argument used by LDS and non-LDS alike when their views are challenged. That’s OK! I understand that the Bible isn’t perfect, so it’s understandable that you interpret things vastly different than others.

    Again, see what I wrote above. The interpretations have to make sense in light of the entire Bible (not in light of LDS scripture; throw that out, b/c we’re talking about the Bible here, not the BOM, POGP or D&C). And I would love to know why you think the Bible isn’t “perfect”. I believe it is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. You can’t use the “it was translated by men” argument to get around that, b/c if you do, then you’re saying that God wasn’t able to get His Word to us as He intended, which would mean He’s not omnipotent, as He states, which would then make Him a liar, which the Bible states He is not.

    I look forward to your reply, Jay.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 4:11 pm |Reply

  141. Brad are you catholic? Do you believe that Constatine was – “inspired, inerrant, infallible”?

    How was the word of Christianity spread after Christs death?

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 4:19 pm |Reply

  142. Brad,

    Thank you for your tempered response to my post. I now feel a little guilty for being irritated with you:) I understand what you are saying in terms of knowing what the original language says, the historical context etc. What worries me is that if it is so difficult to understand what a scripture is saying then only theologians will be saved because they will be the only ones that have a true understanding of what scripture really means. The rest of us must either follow like blind sheep or drop everything else in our lives (employment, family, free time) to study the scriptures.

    It is also clear to me that every religion has competent scholars that investigate original meaning of words and historical context. Apparently, this is not enough to convince them of that there is one right interpretation because they continue to believe as they would before (LDS included).

    The Trinity concept along with many others was debated at the council of Nicene. There were those that actually argued that God had a body. Why would they do that? I’ve also read literature (not LDS) that compares the concept of the Trinity to pagan concepts of God and how many pagan societies held to ideas eerily similar to the Trinity.

    I’m not saying I’m right about everything, but what I do know is that these things make sense, the trinity and other orthodox Christian beliefs make no sense to me and have weak biblical support. Each denomination I have investigated does have some doctrine that seems right to me, but it always comes with the baggage of many other things that seem all wrong. So although the LDS religion has things that seem wrong also, I don’t go elsewhere because they all seem to have deviated from what Christ taught. Short of becoming a theologian, I don’t know what else I can do but live a good life, believing in Christ and hope that he will just forgive my ignorance.

    Comment by Jay — November 9, 2007 @ 4:47 pm |Reply

  143. Brad

    You are asking me to proof something that is an accepted scientific fact. If you are willing to dismiss something as significant as that, how can someone even have a discussion with that is even remotely based on facts, evidence etc. You talk about the Bible as if it is some historical factual thing, but yet dismiss what has been proven over and over time and time again in regards to scientific fact and discovery.

    I can present to you page after page of facts and evidence to support this I sent you one link and you just dismissed it because you think one of many methods used to date the earth is controversial. Here is just one example of literally thousands of articles and information that support my position.

    “Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. He was employed at Caltech’s Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
    First edition 1994; revised version 2002.

    Radiometric dating–the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements–has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating.

    This paper describes in relatively simple terms how a number of the dating techniques work, how accurately the half-lives of the radioactive elements and the rock dates themselves are known, and how dates are checked with one another. In the process the paper refutes a number of misconceptions prevalent among Christians today. This paper is available on the web via the American Scientific Affiliation and related sites to promote greater understanding and wisdom on this issue, particularly within the Christian community.”

    There have been more scientists of faith that have accepted and agree with these scientific discoveries than the other way around, so if it was a matter of agendas and opinions there would be a balance in this statistic. When you talk about agenda’s you have maybe 5% of scientists that argue against the facts of the age of Earth, and 100% of those are Fundamentalist Christians that flat out state that if the evidence proves us wrong we will dismiss the evidence as false end of story. They clearly and openly are taking the position of, I have a belief or theory and I will throw out any fact that doesn’t support it regardless of how valid it is. On the other hand the majority of scientist that accept the data and facts operate more on a principle of prove my theory wrong and I will thank you and be excited to explore this new path of scientific discovery. I think any rational person would have to put their confidence into the later example.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 5:02 pm |Reply

  144. Brad are you catholic? Do you believe that Constatine was – “inspired, inerrant, infallible”?

    How was the word of Christianity spread after Christs death?

    I am most assuredly NOT Catholic. I believe the Bible is i,i,i – has nothing to do with Constantine.

    Christianity spread like anything else does – written word, word of mouth, eyewitness accounts, etc…

    Your point (though I believe I already know)??

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 6:00 pm |Reply

  145. Just curious as to your understanding of things.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 6:10 pm |Reply

  146. There is one on this blog that not only knows the Bible better than anyone else, but also always seems to know our thoughts before they are spoken or written.

    Do we have a Prophet among us?

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 9, 2007 @ 7:02 pm |Reply

  147. Thank you for your tempered response to my post. I now feel a little guilty for being irritated with you:)

    I’m not as bad as some on here think, Jay. I stick to what I believe, and it offends some. I’m not an easily offended person myself, so not much gets to me.

    I understand what you are saying in terms of knowing what the original language says, the historical context etc. What worries me is that if it is so difficult to understand what a scripture is saying then only theologians will be saved because they will be the only ones that have a true understanding of what scripture really means. The rest of us must either follow like blind sheep or drop everything else in our lives (employment, family, free time) to study the scriptures.

    Here’s where I think the thinking in today’s society is wrong. We say “well, if that’s true, then only the scholars have a chance.” But I don’t think so. I didn’t say it was so hard that only theologians or scholars can understand it, nor do I believe that. I think it takes work and diligent study, and I think we owe it to ourselves to undertake such, to make sure our understanding is correct. I am certainly no theologian by any means, nor do I spend an inordinate amount of time studying the Bible. I would like to spend more, but I have a job, a family, friends, etc… that I also want to make sure I’m not neglecting. You don’t have to be especially smart to do it, but you do have to be diligent, and be willing to accept new ideas (when supported) or reject current ideas (if not supported), based on what the entire Bible says. I hope that makes sense. I didn’t mean to describe a situation that a non-theologian couldn’t accomplish, b/c I don’t think that’s the case at all.

    It is also clear to me that every religion has competent scholars that investigate original meaning of words and historical context. Apparently, this is not enough to convince them of that there is one right interpretation because they continue to believe as they would before (LDS included).

    Yes, this is difficult. This is the whole “volitional” argument against belief, i.e. you don’t believe not b/c of facts, but b/c you don’t want to believe it. Do we each approach interpretation with pre-conceived notions? Yes, I believe we do. Heck, I do. But what we must ALWAYS be cognizant of, is that our pre-conceived notions can be wrong, and we must be not only willing to accept that, but willing to change our notions based on proper Bible interpretation. Is that possible for everyone to do? No, I don’t think it is, or everyone would think the same, if the argument was that strong. The Bible itself speaks of people who are unwilling to believe what they hear, b/c they don’t want to. But again, I don’t think this basis can be used to say that all interpretations are valid – I think it can be used to say that some people won’t accept a valid interpretation, even if it’s true. Why? Hard to say, exactly, but here’s my opinion – we want to believe in something to be true, and stick to it. If we have to then change course, then we admit that we didn’t have it right the first time, and many don’t want to believe that about themselves. Just my opinion.

    The Trinity concept along with many others was debated at the council of Nicene. There were those that actually argued that God had a body. Why would they do that? I’ve also read literature (not LDS) that compares the concept of the Trinity to pagan concepts of God and how many pagan societies held to ideas eerily similar to the Trinity.

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Yes, the concept of the Trinity was debated at Nicene (though it wasn’t invented at Nicene – rather it was affirmed there. I think this is a HUGE difference that most people overlook). I think your point speaks directly to the previous paragraph, in that people can and do hold different interpretations, and are sometimes unwilling to change, even in the light of overwhelming evidence. Further, I would say that just b/c pagan societies may (or may not) have had a concept similar to the Trinity, that has no bearing on it’s correctness. My father-in-law was not a Christian until he was about 55, but he was a great, moral, kind, loving man. Since those are supposed to be qualities of Christians, and he wasn’t one, I can’t say those qualities were wrong (since he wasn’t a Christian), b/c he truly had those qualities. It just so happened that he, as a non-Christian, had certain (but not all) qualities of a Christian.

    I’m not saying I’m right about everything, but what I do know is that these things make sense, the trinity and other orthodox Christian beliefs make no sense to me and have weak biblical support.

    I’d like to go over those with you, Jay. Personally, one-on-one. But that’s, of course, up to you. I don’t think that we can say something isn’t true just b/c it doesn’t make human sense, b/c that’s trying to put God’s ability (and even His very nature) into terms we can understand, which won’t always necessarily be the case. The Bible itself says that His ways and thoughts are ABOVE ours, not just like ours. Can your mind (or mine, for that matter) TRULY understand the concept of eternity? No, b/c we are humans that have a mortal body and a temporal mind. We can APPREHEND the belief of eternity, but can’t truly COMPREHEND it. The same would apply to the EC understanding of the Trinity. I believe there’s absolutely overwhelming support for the evangelical Christian belief of the Trinity (as opposed to the Mormon belief of it) in the Bible, which I would love to share with you. But I won’t press it on you – it’s your choice.

    Each denomination I have investigated does have some doctrine that seems right to me, but it always comes with the baggage of many other things that seem all wrong. So although the LDS religion has things that seem wrong also, I don’t go elsewhere because they all seem to have deviated from what Christ taught. Short of becoming a theologian, I don’t know what else I can do but live a good life, believing in Christ and hope that he will just forgive my ignorance.

    Good summation, Jay. There’s a LOT of people who feel this same way, I’m sure. Churches are made up, at the end of the day, of sinful human beings (including you and me), who will sin, regardless of whether we’re “churched” or not. Hopefully we sin less, and hopefully we strive to rid our lives of those sins, but nonetheless, we still sin. Are there things that are “wrong” with every church? Sure there are. Some probably have more “wrong” with them than others, but they all are not perfect, nor will they ever be. I am Baptist. Do I believe EVERYTHING that the Baptist church believes, supports or holds to? No, nor do I think I am required to. But I do hold to the same core doctrinal beliefs that the official position of the SBC holds to, which is why I have identified myself with that church. I love my pastor, and I love the people in the church. I dont’ always agree with it, or with everyone in it, but as long as they’re matters that are not doctrinal, I’m OK with that. If they were to be doctrinal issues (such as if they SBC was to state a position on salvation, the Trinity, God, Jesus, etc… that was, I believed, contrary to what the Bible taught), then I would leave in an instant, b/c I wouldn’t want to be identified with a church that didn’t match my core beliefs.

    I think we ALL have deviated from what Christ has taught, b/c none of us are perfect. But I believe we can seek and strive to be part of a church that at least conforms to what the Bible teaches, and I believe we can know what the Bible teaches.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 7:11 pm |Reply

  148. CoventryRM,

    And I can provide an equal amount of articles that go contrary to what you believe, and contrary to that article.

    It’s a push. You accept as fact something that is in dispute, I don’t accept it as fact, b/c evidence doesn’t clearly support it, nor does the Bible.

    I’m done with arguing about earth age.

    Comment by Brad — November 9, 2007 @ 7:15 pm |Reply

  149. 95% to 5% is not a push – find me one that is not written by a fundamentalist Christian and actually has real data in it. (95% to 5% scientists, I am sure the # of articles written are close to equal since the 95% are spending thier time on other things and really don’t care about religion, whereas the 5% are only scientists to give them credibilty to write the articles opposed)

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 7:26 pm |Reply

  150. ooooops my stats were wrong sorry it isn’t 95%

    Over 99.8% of specialists in the biological and geological sciences support the theory of evolution. This implies a very old earth. A near universal estimate, based on radiometric measurements of earth rocks, is that that the earth coalesced into more or less its current shape about 4.5 billion years ago.

    Comment by CoventryRM — November 9, 2007 @ 7:40 pm |Reply

  151. steffielynn,

    I only read the first 40 or so comments.

    Some people are worth talking to. Todd Wood for example. Some people are an utter waste of time.

    It’s your blog. But if you want my own unsolicited advice…

    Delete this entire thread and lock the comments. Then ban a few of the self-righteous buttheads your blog seems to have attracted.

    Or you can do what Rusty does over at 9M: every time one of these trolls posts, simply use your admin account and alter their posts to talk about something like fluffy bunnies. Eventually, they’ll take the hint and leave. And the blog will see a marked reduction in air pollution.

    You really don’t have time for these guys. Take it from someone who tried and can never have those hours of his life back.

    Comment by Seth R. — November 14, 2007 @ 11:12 pm |Reply

  152. Yay! I found someplace where you actually reference scripture Brad. I am so thrilled I could spit.

    ” The Bible tells us not to rely on our heart, our feelings (”the heart is deceitful above all things, and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9).”

    Is the heart the seat of emotion in the Bible? In the Old testament? The evidence is ambiguous. Oftentimes it is described in ways that are similar to how we describe the mind today (Ps. 119:11, 34; 1st Kings 8:17-18, Ex 35:10, Prov 23:7, 12, 15 are examples; that said there are many examples of the heart leading to joy, connecting it with emotion). I am not sure that you can use this scripture to dismiss revelatory evidence of truth, in part because scripture is ambiguous regarding the nature of revelatory experience. After all, the point of the scripture in Jeremiah (in context) is to note that people can be self-deceptive, but that God can see into our hearts.

    “We are told that the Bible is, and should be, the basis for what we know (”Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11).” This tells us to examine what we hear, check it against the Bible, and if it is in agreement with what the Bible says, then do you believe it. But you don’t just believe what you hear, b/c it “feels” right. The Bible also says that “all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16) – the Bible should be our basis, not our feelings.”

    For these two to work, what scripture is Paul (or the author of Timothy) referring to? Since it probably doesn’t refer to the books of the New Testament, why do you consider them to be scripture?

    “Romans 1:18-20 “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

    Romans 2:12-15 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)”

    John 1:9 “The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.”

    Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

    2 Peter 3:9 “Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    Shall I go on? The Bible’s pretty clear, both explicity and implicitly, that we are without excuse, and have the opportunity to accept. Do you believe the Bible is clear that we will be held accountable for accepting or rejecting God’s plan of salvation? If you read the Bible, you will see that we clearly are. So, if we all will be held accountable for our choice, does that not clearly show that all will be able to make that choice, one way or the other?”

    An excellent slew of prooftexts. I am curious about a couple of things. In reading these texts, I get the impression that you don’t feel that one has to belong to a particular church in order to be saved. Rather a true knowledge of Christ, no matter how derived, is sufficient for salvation and all people are capable of getting this knowledge, even if they have never read the Bible or have ever heard of Christ. Am I understanding your interpretation correctly?

    Comment by John C. — November 15, 2007 @ 3:04 pm |Reply

  153. John C.

    I find it extremely curious how some folks can use NT scripture, that refers to scripture, as meaning referring to the Bible. The Bible didn’t even exist yet, and as you pointed out, the NT did not exist and could not have been considered scripture. Any reference to scripture in the NT refers to the Tanakh, not the Bible. Many scholars believe that only the first 2 (of 3) parts of the Tanakh were compiled at the time of Paul, further limiting any scriptural references.

    Anyway, just an observation.

    Comment by Bishop Rick — November 16, 2007 @ 7:31 am |Reply

  154. This is a partial response to Brad’s comment #100 above. I wanted to finish responding to him, but I just don’t have the time and I think my response is much too long already. If I hadn’t promised him I would respond I would not post this. Sorry Stephie.

    Which means you already have doubts, and ought to be looking elsewhere.

    What made you think I haven’t? I still can’t find anything better.

    I check to see if what I hear coincides with what the Bible teaches

    Don’t you mean if what you hear coincides with your interpretation of the Bible?

    He will never lead me down a path that would run contrary to the Bible, so if I feel one thing and the Bible says another, I can know that the “feeling” I have is not of the Spirit. It’s really not that hard.

    So you actually ignore the Spirit if you think the Bible tells you something else?

    Pretty much useless? Are you kidding?

    No, I’m not. For the purpose of trying to prove that your interpretation is the correct one, it is. I do not believe that the Bible is useless for teaching us the gospel of Christ.

    you don’t go to hell b/c of slight doctrinal differences

    So is worshiping Saints or Mary a slight doctrinal difference? In your opinion are Catholics going to hell for worshiping idols? What about saying babies go to hell if they are not baptized? What is a slight doctrinal difference?

    You can arrive at the correct interpretation of Scripture by interpreting verses in light of the entire Bible, not just in light of what you think they mean

    So all I have to do is memorize the entire Bible. I don’t know why anyone should think that it’s hard to be saved. But seriously, you don’t have to know the entire Bible to put a verse into context. Doesn’t everyone put them into the light of what they think they mean. If it disagrees with their doctrine they will interpret it until it agrees.

    But the Evangelical church does not have a “leader”, per se, in that it doesn’t have an established hierarchy that pretends to be God’s link to us.

    Exactly, so you have no one that you can possibly compare to a prophet (the Pope is the only other Christian leader that could be compared to a prophet). So how can you assume you know what a prophet would act like, look like, etc? The Jews had their idea of what the Messiah would look and act like and they missed the boat. They had the scriptures, the law and the prophets. How do you know you’re not drifting in the same ocean?

    when the foundation of your faith is based upon “further revelation” told by your first prophet who is known to be a fraud,

    Really? In what way was Joseph shown to be a fraud. I’m just curious to see what you think.

    That’s not scholarly in the least. You trying to bring this up as an excuse for the evidence against (or lack of evidence to support) Mormonism is ridiculous.

    So do you believe that the earth was made in ~4,000 years like the Bible seems claims? Do you think that all the fossils are attempts by Satan to deceive us? Would you set aside the Bible if science could “prove” it was false. If not then you know why Mormons don’t buckle under the “proof” against the BOM.

    You can’t prove Christianity is false. It simply can’t be done.

    You can’t prove Mormonism is false. It simply can’t be done.

    Are you trying to say that BY was the ONLY one who believed that?

    No, I believe I said that majority of Mormons don’t believe those things. That implies that there are a few that insist on believing these things. These are the same Mormons that think, as you do, that everything a prophet says must come from God or he is false. You have to look at the overall “fruit” they left behind not just a few erroneous teachings.

    How can you belong to a religion where BY was one of the chief key members, a prophet called by God according to the dictates of your religion, yet you don’t even give his beliefs creedence b/c you don’t think they were correct?

    This is something that comes up all the time with non-Mormon Christians because they have no understanding of continuous revelation. According to LDS thought the current prophet’s teachings are more important than those of the past. Mormons today are not required to follow Brigham Young’s teachings (although they do follow most of them). His outlandish and speculative teachings are ignored and considered his opinion. Why do non-LDS think that God will reveal nothing to us outside of the Bible? If God is the same today as he was yesterday, then he will still use prophets. (Amos 3:7 ) The Bible isn’t the final word of God. To think you could possibly fit into one book everything God would ever want to say to his children is an extreme view to say the least.

    No way. The Trinity (not as Mormons understand it, but as Evangelical Christians understand it) is clearly taught in Scripture.

    Explain to me how Jesus was being baptized, the Holy Ghost descending like a dove, and God the Father’s voice speaking from heaven happened all at the same time. Did Jesus throw his voice and cause the people to hallucinate? (Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:21-23, Matt. 3:15-17)

    And how exactly did Stephen see Jesus standing next to God if they are the same person? (ACTS 7:55-56)

    Why did Jesus plead to the father saying “not as I will, but as thou wilt.”? If they are truly the same person then their wills would be the same. (Matt. 26:39-42)

    Why does Jesus say he ascending “to my Father, and your Father, – to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17-18) Isn’t he God? Why doesn’t he just say I’m ascending to heaven? Why go through the wasted breath to say he is ascending up to his God if he is the only God?

    Why does he pray to himself?

    Why did Jesus ask God to make his Apostles “one even as we are one”? Were they all supposed to jump into the same body? Or is the more reasonable interpretation that God and Jesus are one in purpose not in body.

    Crazy. You’re not looking very hard – what about John 4:24, for example?

    So I guess I’m supposed to ignore the fact that Jesus resurrected. That Thomas felt and saw that he had a body. John 20:27

    So I guess that he left his body behind when he ascended into heaven? Does that really make sense? Don’t you think if he went through all the trouble to take his body up again that he would keep it?

    There are, of course, many other scriptures in the Bible supporting the view that God has a body. Here are a few more.
    Genesis 32:23-30 Moses saw God FACE to FACE
    Genesis 1:26-27 God created man in his own image
    Genesis 5:3 notice the same verbiage used to describe Adam’s children. Why would it mean one thing when talking about God but something else when talking about Adam?
    Exodus 33:21-23 God has hands, a face and “back parts”
    Deuteronomy 9:10 God has fingers

    This is what Satan thought, and look where it got him. This is also what he tempted Adam & Eve with, and look where it got us. Ridiculous.

    Well actually Satan didn’t lie. Like always he mixed truth with lie. He said they would “be as gods”. The Lord confirms Satan’s statement when he said “ Behold the man is become as one of us.” Genesis 3:22
    The NT tells us again and again we can become like Christ who is god. In fact, we are commanded to be like Him.

    John 10:34-36 we are gods
    Romans 8:14-18 We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
    Matt. 5:48 We are commanded to be perfect

    Nope. We are ALL part of a “royal priesthood, a holy nation”, not just one of us, according to the Bible.

    Hebrews 5:4-10 you can’t take the priesthood upon yourself it must be given to you by God.

    There are many that claim to hold the priesthood, but not all of them have been given it from God as is the order shown in the NT. John 15:16-19 Jesus chooses and ordains his Apostles (they don’t just spontaneously have the authority to be Apostles).

    Mark 3:14 Jesus ordained the twelve so they could preach. Why would he do this if they already had the authority?

    Acts 13:1-3 disciples ordained to preach.

    Titus 1:5 Again giving authority to act in the name of God (priesthood) necessary to carry out the work. Why all this ordaining? Isn’t it a waste of time if everyone already has the priesthood?

    Wrong again. A complete misinterpretation of the Scriptures I know that Mormons use (Mark 16:16, for example), in light of the ENTIRE Bible and what it says. Completely unsupportable as being REQUIRED for salvation (although it should be the first thing we do AFTER salvation, I might add).

    So why should it be the first thing you do? Why should you bother at all if it’s not required? Why is there such an emphasis on it? It is not only Mark 16:15-16 that confirms that baptism is required (and one must wonder why you conveniently ignore Mark). Consider the following additional scriptures.
    1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is required for salvation.
    Matt 28:19-20 Why command the disciples to baptize if it is an optional ordinance? That makes no sense.
    John 3:3-7 Jesus himself says that baptism is required.

    Nowhere is this found in the Bible – nowhere. I challenge you to show me where you think this is, and if you tell me where I think you will, you need to have REALLY studied it in light of it’s historical, linguistic and contextual meaning, or it will get destroyed.

    Isaiah 24:22
    Isaiah 42:6-7
    Isaiah 61:1
    1Peter 3:19-20
    1Peter 4:6

    How so? Just b/c Joseph Smith tried to get the Bible to say what he wanted it to say, doesn’t mean that it really did. Again, as I mentioned earlier, I’m not discounting what the Holy Spirit says – just that it won’t go contrary to Scripture.

    You don’t discount what the Holy Spirit says as long as it agrees with you. If they were all delusional interpretations of Smith then it is just another example of how the Bible can be used to come to completely different conclusions about God and his gospel.

    I agree that to be a Christian means to accept Christ as your Savior and follow His teachings. I don’t believe Mormons do this, b/c the “Jesus” they believe in, the whole religion they believe in, is contrary to the Bible, unfortunately.

    Well that is your personal belief, but it doesn’t make it so. God knows who believes and that’s good enough for me.

    EJ,

    You are right .In fact Joseph Smith never really came up with much as I can find nearly all his teachings scattered around in many other sources as well as his own environment and backyard ..

    True enough, the concepts I have been discussing above do not have their origin with Joseph Smith. Early Christians believed some of them. Some of them were debated among those present at the council of Nicaea, which has it own problems.

    Comment by Jay — November 19, 2007 @ 4:12 am |Reply

  155. Jay

    You really did look into all this! Well I hope he does read it!

    Comment by steffielynn — November 19, 2007 @ 4:47 am |Reply


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